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Old March 23rd, 2016, 10:31 AM   #721
MattiG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Helsinki looks (and Finns often complain it is) as car-oriented as anything in the US or Canada, though.
Wrong.

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There's enough on-the-ground car infrastructure in the area that the city and region can easily afford to prioritize its bike and mass transit networks for the next generation or so. Oslo, Stockholm, and Copenhagen all already have a better modal balance than does Helsinki.
Cycling is kind of a mantra in the current discussion to solve everything. However, because of the climate reasons, the market share of cycling in the winter time is about zero. Therefore, cycling does not solve any capacity issue, because there must be winter-time transport capacity enough for all the cyclists, too.

But do not worry. In addition to the mass transit station nearby, the area around that junction is full of cycling routes (marked as amber):



The ring roads are the key elements to keep the unnecessary traffic away from the inner city. Keeping them up-to-date is essential, and Helsinki has succeeded pretty well: The traffic volumes in the inner city have been flat for the last 45 years even if the population of the metropolitan area has doubled.

What comes to Oslo, Copenhagen, and Stockholm, all these cities have rather miserably failed to keep the national thru-traffic away from the urban area. Oslo and Stockholm even routed the main transport corridors through very dense areas of the city. In Copenhagen, the E20 to serve Finland, Sweden and Norway runs at the distance of less than 4 km from the city center, and E47 as the distance of 8 km. In the Helsinki area, the traffic bypassing Helsinki is routed on the 50/E18 at distance of 15-20 km.
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Last edited by MattiG; March 23rd, 2016 at 04:59 PM. Reason: Oslo -> Stockholm
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 12:59 PM   #722
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But do not worry. In addition to the mass transit station nearby, the area around that junction is full of cycling routes (marked as amber):

Excuse me, but calling street sidewalks or park lanes 'cycling routes' is incorrect, even if they have the cycling signs attached to them. There are only two actual cycling routes on this picture (i.e. those in active use by cyclists) - one that follows Hameenlinnanväylä on the east side of it, and the other that follows Kehä I on the north side of it (try to find where it is - in this particular spot it's full of confusing turns).
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 02:34 PM   #723
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Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Cycling is kind of a mantra in the current discussion to solve everything. However, because of the climate reasons, the market share of cycling in the winter time is about zero. Therefore, cycling does not solve any capacity issue, because there must be winter-time transport capacity enough for all the cyclists, too.
Irish cyclists are equally stupid. Demanding capacity that is unusable in stormy winter weather be provided for them. They are a sociopathic bunch of nutters


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What comes to Oslo, Copenhagen, and Stockholm, all these cities have rather miserably failed to keep the national thru-traffic away from the urban area..
Copenhagen is now being upgraded to 3x3 or 4x4 on the ring road and approaches...a bit late but a big upgrade all the same.

Stockholm has planned a huge expensive tunnelled outer ring under the inland sea to the west and finding the large wedge of cash to do this...as well as dealing with sociopathic green whiners...has proven difficult. Its a €10bn or nothing project as it cannot be done in stages really.

But I do think Copenhagen and Stockholm are dealing with getting through traffic out of their cities. Never been to Oslo.
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 05:05 PM   #724
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Excuse me, but calling street sidewalks or park lanes 'cycling routes' is incorrect, even if they have the cycling signs attached to them.
You might want to slightly elaborate this statement?
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Old March 24th, 2016, 12:01 AM   #725
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You might want to slightly elaborate this statement?
Yes, although this thread is a hostile environment for discussing cycling infrastructure, with the likes of RV, and the subject is off-topic.

Cyclists have a lot more flexibility in choosing their routes than car users do. So a cycling route is something that is in actual use by a significant amount of cyclists, because it matches common traffic patterns and answers other bicycling needs (safety from cars, pedestrians, pets and kids, minimum amount of traffic lights, minimum amount of steep inclines and sharp corners, good visibility). There is only a small amount of such popular cycling 'highways' in Helsinki. The majority of sidewalks and park lanes that are marked as 'cycling paths' see little to no use, because they aren't connecting parts of town in a way that cyclists find useful, or are otherwise badly designed.

City planners have finally noticed this, and are making it explicit by having a plan for 'baanaverkko' where the majority of infrastructure investment will go:


Also, they've finally learned that putting cyclists on pedestrian sidewalks with only a white line as separator is stupid and makes things unsafe for everyone. Cyclists belong on streets, either on dedicated lanes, or on the actual car lane if there's no space.
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Old March 24th, 2016, 04:46 AM   #726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Wrong.
Just because you say something is wrong does not, in fact, make it wrong. Instead you merely reveal your bias. There are entire websites devoted to the subject (some even in a language I can read!).
Quote:
Cycling is kind of a mantra in the current discussion to solve everything. However, because of the climate reasons, the market share of cycling in the winter time is about zero. Therefore, cycling does not solve any capacity issue, because there must be winter-time transport capacity enough for all the cyclists, too.

But do not worry. In addition to the mass transit station nearby, the area around that junction is full of cycling routes (marked as amber):



The ring roads are the key elements to keep the unnecessary traffic away from the inner city. Keeping them up-to-date is essential, and Helsinki has succeeded pretty well: The traffic volumes in the inner city have been flat for the last 45 years even if the population of the metropolitan area has doubled.

What comes to Oslo, Copenhagen, and Stockholm, all these cities have rather miserably failed to keep the national thru-traffic away from the urban area. Oslo and Stockholm even routed the main transport corridors through very dense areas of the city. In Copenhagen, the E20 to serve Finland, Sweden and Norway runs at the distance of less than 4 km from the city center, and E47 as the distance of 8 km. In the Helsinki area, the traffic bypassing Helsinki is routed on the 50/E18 at distance of 15-20 km.
And now you are completely in the wrong.

1. Somehow Minneapolis makes winter biking work. (Funny that I use an American city to call a European city's bullshit!) Perhaps it's time for Minnesotans to export their expertise?

2. Pedestrian routes are not the same as bike routes. A mistake that elementary reveals a total ignorance of the topic at hand.

3. It's not about a war on cars. It's about mode choice and the freedom to move about howsoever you wish/have resources to. If you cannot do this then you, as a city and country, have failed to provide fair and equitable transportation infrastructure. Take that from someone who lives in a country where the long-term failure to do just that informs the policy discussion in many ways, every single day.

4. It becomes a war on cars when motorists refuse to part with even the relatively limited funds needed to provide decent bike infrastructure. Even in the Netherlands the funds allocated to bike infrastructure is but a fraction of that allocated to vehicular infrastructure.

Last edited by hammersklavier; March 24th, 2016 at 04:51 AM.
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Old March 24th, 2016, 04:28 PM   #727
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Yes, bicycle infrastructure generally doesn't cost much. Especially if you incorporate it as a fixture in city planning instead of an afterthought. In the Netherlands, bicycle infrastructure is primarily the responsibility of municipalities, with grants coming from provinces. There is no 'competing' with national infrastructure funding.

However, while cycling can attain high usage, it doesn't solve traffic problems on motorways. The average trip using a motorway is much longer than what 90% of cyclists are willing to cycle. The Netherlands also shows that despite world-class bicycle infrastructure and low-traffic zones in city centers, you still need massive investment in motorways, as is evidenced by the many recent expansion projects to address traffic congestion.
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Old March 24th, 2016, 04:56 PM   #728
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The Netherlands also shows that despite world-class bicycle infrastructure and low-traffic zones in city centers, you still need massive investment in motorways, as is evidenced by the many recent expansion projects to address traffic congestion.
Are those projects all about connecting Amsterdam, Hague, Rotterdam and Utrecht? Because when I've been there, that seemed to be precisely the problem to me: these cities form one large metropolitan area with absolutely nothing in the middle of it. Helsinki is different.
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Old March 30th, 2016, 07:27 AM   #729
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Helsinki needs to construct the eastern and western extensions of "Ring 0". That will end the rush peaks on streets that collapse them nowadays, would provide an equivalent close to-city-center-ring as Stockholm's one and move the financial center to Pasila. Then southern Helsinki can become a green cycling paradise with no goddamn cars blocking and polluting streets to bring money-providing people from nearby (countryside) It's a shame what a "city with no balls" Helsinki has became in this decade in what comes to traffic. Trams and cyclists, that's indeed the mantra...
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Old March 30th, 2016, 02:35 PM   #730
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Semantics, I would say.

In the normal language, the term "bicycle route" matches with the map shown earlier. Plans to improve the routes is not in conflict with it.

The bicycle route network in the Helsinki region has improved a lot during the last decades. Let us not underrate this development.
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Old March 30th, 2016, 10:09 PM   #731
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Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
The bicycle route network in the Helsinki region has improved a lot during the last decades. Let us not underrate this development.
Such a statement can only come from a non-cyclist. The only substantial improvement in Helsinki in the past 15 years is the fast two-way track build on the former harbor railway path through Kamppi. Everything else is pretty much as it was back then.
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Old March 30th, 2016, 10:37 PM   #732
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Helsinki needs to construct the eastern and western extensions of "Ring 0". That will end the rush peaks on streets that collapse them nowadays, would provide an equivalent close to-city-center-ring as Stockholm's one and move the financial center to Pasila. Then southern Helsinki can become a green cycling paradise with no goddamn cars blocking and polluting streets to bring money-providing people from nearby (countryside) It's a shame what a "city with no balls" Helsinki has became in this decade in what comes to traffic. Trams and cyclists, that's indeed the mantra...
Your argument about 'money-providing people' goes both ways. I'm a resident of Helsinki but I have a job in Espoo. And yet, I don't tell Espoo people how braindead their car-centric policies are. Espoo can do what it wants, and I'm only a guest there.

Here's a shocking idea for you: a city should primarily serve the needs of its residents. If you want to influence how Helsinki develops, move to Helsinki and vote in the politicians that support your views. But maybe then you simply wouldn't need to use a car anymore
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Old March 30th, 2016, 11:19 PM   #733
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The most boring, disappointing map of 'this year infrastructure investment' in a long, long time:
http://www.liikennevirasto.fi/hankkeet

Why are Kehä III and Kehärata even there? The projects were completed last year.
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Old April 5th, 2016, 07:22 AM   #734
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The most boring, disappointing map of 'this year infrastructure investment' in a long, long time:
http://www.liikennevirasto.fi/hankkeet

Why are Kehä III and Kehärata even there? The projects were completed last year.
Kehä III should had been by 2022 a proper 2x3-2x4-motorway with very high ADT on it's middle 2x2-section.

It seems the map shows only those that are under completion/under construction.

Minister Berner tweeted me that new projects will be put on the list during April or May.

I guess that would include Kehä III last part (could had done it properly for once again in 2007-2011...; if not included Vantaa I guess will complete it just again with it own money), Kehä I in Keilaniemi on study to improve it soon until Leppävaara/Road 1, motorway (now heavily trafficked 1+1-"motor road") in Kouvola (6/12), Something around Oulu region, maybe Myllypuro interchange in Helsinki on Kehä I and maybe something in Jyväskylä (a few projects waiting for decades) or in Tampere region (huge ADT 1+1 narrow road nowadays) Tampere-Orivesi-motorway. That's what Finnish governments has thought is enough for 6 next years f we are lucky - Sweden does that in a year - if even all that is done.

Then, let's raise MP's salaries (negotiation ongoing)! Nothing of capacity improving on 60´s 2+2-accesses/by-passes etc. Nor new metro or commuter train lines.

Sweden must spend like a hundred times more than Finland after Lipponen - when large infrastructure projects kept the salary rates normal.

Last edited by RV; April 5th, 2016 at 09:19 AM.
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Old April 7th, 2016, 04:14 PM   #735
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Of course Lahti southern by-pass may be started along the southern access next year by the city itself, but half of it with adt min 15000 would be 1+1....
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Old April 8th, 2016, 02:45 PM   #736
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Why are Kehä III and Kehärata even there? The projects were completed last year.
The project end date never is the day of opening the road or track to the public use.

Even if the public traffic on Kehärata started in July 2015, the project itself continued in 2016: The last remaining escalator access at the Airport station was opened in March 2016.

The Ring III Upgrade Phase 2 was planned to continue in 2016, even if it got completed in December 2015. Because there typically are some gardening etc stuff remaining to be done next summer, I do not believe the chart is desperately wrong.
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Old April 11th, 2016, 02:02 AM   #737
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UNBELIEVEBLE list of projects - even Ring III not included!

This is going to cost on new concept of Regional Elections unless not quickstarted out of nowhere (like they sometimes do,as with the missing ramp of the E18/6/7 and E18/50 interchange).


Lahti Southern By-pass (torso though (1+1/ADT 15 000 and I believe it will be more) for 7 Kms, but Southern Access widening included at least.

There is a rumor wide spread that money will be given as the economy raises project by project; Turku by-pass (east), E18 and 1+1, could be one of those..
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Old April 11th, 2016, 07:12 PM   #738
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Just TWO PROJECTS for FOUR YEARS! And 250M on trams...
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Old April 11th, 2016, 10:34 PM   #739
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Some good new also: 3rd lanes construction from 4/5/6/7/E75 and Myllypuro interchange may start next year on Ring I East. Just _one_ ramp in Kontula would had made it completely free-flow though till Itäkeskus, but that egain is Finland..

Last edited by RV; April 11th, 2016 at 10:55 PM.
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Old April 29th, 2016, 06:32 PM   #740
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The motorway upgrade project on the road 7/E18 faced an incident today morning. An excavator hit an aerial bomb dating back to the world war II. The police isolated the area, and the people from the armed forces moved the bomb away. Back into business in a few hours.
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