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Old October 28th, 2007, 11:34 PM   #41
czm3
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What an odd thread. To harp on ONE statistic to show car friendlyness is silly. What about surface streets (much more important in DTs than some belt road) But most importantly, PARKING!
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Old October 28th, 2007, 11:36 PM   #42
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Oh, when it comes to Parking, Hartford is definitely NOT car-friendly.
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Old October 29th, 2007, 12:15 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czm3 View Post
What an odd thread. To harp on ONE statistic to show car friendlyness is silly.
I don't know if you read the first post properly, but i said it was an indication
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Old October 29th, 2007, 11:41 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
I don't know if you read the first post properly, but i said it was an indication

Fair enough, I can see where you wrote that. However, the thread has taken a course of its own and it makes the impression that this stat is the only one that matters. You, if anybody, could find the number of parking spots in any given city. Any ideas? It think it would be interesting.
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Old December 11th, 2010, 07:25 PM   #45
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Car-friendlyness must be a city with wide streets, plenty of parking-lots, no speed-bumps, no tolls, few pedestrian-zones, no roundabouts, no bicycle-paths, few oneway streets, lots of motorways, service-stations and drivethroughs.

I like to drive but I don't want to live in a such city.

I see no russian city on that list.

Russian cities like St petersburg & Moscow are car-friendly, to the extent that so many people choose their car which results in endless traffic-jams and road rage.

A city like St Petersburg has few roundabouts, no speed-bumps, few pedestrian-zones, no tolls and no bicycle-paths, as a pedestrian you feel very unsafe crossing the street, especially if there are no traffic lights. I have never seen any bicycles at all in St Petersburg, maybe its because high risk of theft.
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Old December 11th, 2010, 07:46 PM   #46
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The most car unfriendly city in the world most be Fes, Morocco!
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Old December 11th, 2010, 08:09 PM   #47
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of capitals I think the most car-frieldy must be berlin.
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Old December 11th, 2010, 08:22 PM   #48
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The most car unfriendly city in the world most be Fes, Morocco!
ok, lots of speed bumps and road tolls in Fes, Morocco.
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Old December 11th, 2010, 08:22 PM   #49
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Car friendly does not equal pedestrian / bicycle unfriendly in my opinion...
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Old December 11th, 2010, 09:43 PM   #50
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Care to name any real life examples?

I am having trouble coming up with cities that are both pedestrian and car friendly (although maybe Toronto and Chicago could be a few examples I guess aside from parking).
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Old December 12th, 2010, 06:18 AM   #51
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I do not consider my metro of Tampa Bay to be very car friendly, the lack of freeways, too much placement of traffic lights, and funneling too much traffic onto few major routes makes driving around a pain, dangerous, inefficient, and unfriendly. Dallas, Texas has to be the most car friendly city I've seen.
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Old December 12th, 2010, 06:52 AM   #52
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Actually I would say that pretty much all of Tampa Bay is pretty car friendly despite the lack of freeways.



I mean I don't really see anything in this photo that is unfriendly to cars (and I would say this scene is pretty typical of the Tampa Bay Area overall).

Last edited by diablo234; December 12th, 2010 at 07:17 PM.
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Old December 12th, 2010, 08:11 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus Brage View Post
Car-friendlyness must be a city with wide streets, plenty of parking-lots, no speed-bumps, no tolls, few pedestrian-zones, no roundabouts, no bicycle-paths, few oneway streets, lots of motorways, service-stations and drivethroughs.
I have a slightly different vision of what does it mean to be car-friendly and I disagree with you in some assessments:

- wide streets: sure we need them. Yet, flow management is way more important than only the number of lanes in a given area (in terms of streets, not highways or thoroughfares). Both London and Rome are cities that weren't massively renovated with boulevards like Madrid or Paris. Both have a maze of narrow streets leading downtown. Yet, irrespective of the Congestion Charge in London or the ZTL in Rome, traffic flows way better in London because the flow there is better organized.

- parking lots: in residential areas, car-friendliness is measured by parking available in the property. However, sometimes is more traffic-efficient to have a parking garage in a corner of two busy streets than a lot of street parking activity going on (people driving slowly to find a spot, people interrupting traffic to maneuver in and out street parking etc.)

- no roundabouts: in crossings with not much traffic, a roundabout is quite efficient.

- few one-way streets: depending on the street pattern, a one-way street improves traffic flow by reducing flow interference from cars crossing to the left (right in UK/Australia) to enter driveways or so.

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Russian cities like St petersburg & Moscow are car-friendly, to the extent that so many people choose their car which results in endless traffic-jams and road rage.
Road rage has nothing to do with traffic jams, but with civility and public behavior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diablo234 View Post
Care to name any real life examples?

I am having trouble coming up with cities that are both pedestrian and car friendly (although maybe Toronto and Chicago could be a few examples I guess aside from parking).
Rotterdam immediately comes to mind. Berlin is also another example for me. Even New York (Manhattan included) is quite car friendly. People like to praise Manhattan as a transit paradise, and it might be true for Downtown and Midtown. However, it is incredibly easy to drive a car in Manhattan, except for the very streets near Ground Zero and NYSE, which is barricaded on all corners. Other than that, you have one urban highway on the East River and other partial expressway by the Hudson River. Manhattan has only one issue: parking prices. Once you are willing to pay US$ 40/day, you can easily find parking even in the most densely served area and arguably the most densely occupied neighborhood in the developed world.

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Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
of capitals I think the most car-frieldy must be berlin.
For me, Berlin is a very car-accessible city. So is Stockholm and so is, to a lesser extent, Helsinki. Wien is a mixed city, some specific routes are not good (too many tram tracks or bus lanes, too large sidewalks), but in general it does well either.

On the other hand, Roma is a hell, less because anti-car policies, most because of the augmentation of Italian driving habits on our capital
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Old December 12th, 2010, 05:15 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Road rage has nothing to do with traffic jams, but with civility and public behavior.:
Road rage is a result of mass-motorism, people tend to get more annoyed in a stressful situation, they take risks, they try to get ahead out of the queue at the expense of others. Beeing stuck in a traffic jam makes normal people go nuts, rather than if the road is clear.

The origin of the term came from USA, where vehicles per capita
is 842 per 1000 people. The highest in the world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
For me, Berlin is a very car-accessible city. So is Stockholm and so is, to a lesser extent, Helsinki. Wien is a mixed city, some specific routes are not good (too many tram tracks or bus lanes, too large sidewalks), but in general it does well either.

On the other hand, Roma is a hell, less because anti-car policies, most because of the augmentation of Italian driving habits on our capital
Berlin has wide avenues and no medevial centre, so I can imagine driving is easy there, much due to the fact that the city was ruined by the brits and americans during the war.

Stockholm I have been working as a taxidriver for 6 years i Stockholm.
Its accesible in the suburbs, outside the innercity gates, but the innercity is well-known for its anti-automobilism.

*Its a mission impossible to find a parking lot.
* Some parts of town are built like a maze of oneway and deadend streets especialy "Östermalm". Still after 6 years of taxidriving it was difficult finding my way through there.
*The Old Town: No motortraffic allowed at all.
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Old December 12th, 2010, 07:03 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus Brage View Post
Berlin has wide avenues and no medevial centre, so I can imagine driving is easy there, much due to the fact that the city was ruined by the brits and americans during the war.
It is not.
There are some major throughways, but once you get off one it's pretty much like in every Western city. In Mitte there are cyclists EVERYWHERE and they ride like every one of them posses whole street. It may not be a full-blown case of Dutch cyclists, but I found driving in Copenhagen less stresful and demanding than driving in Berlin.
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Old December 13th, 2010, 09:32 PM   #56
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This is a very car unfriendly city, only a few streets on the map are allowed to use for motorvehicles. Parkingspace is sparse.



But car unfriendly means pedestrian friendly.

I claim there is no city which is both car and pedestrianfriendly. Either the motorists have advantage or the pedestrians.

So is there a city which is completely closed to motor-traffic at all times? Probably Venice, Italy. I did'nt see any cars there but motorboats, even the carpenters, bricklayers and other handymen took their equipment by gondolas, it was very pleasant to walk in a city without any cars at all. I wonder if there are any ambulance-boats there.



I think To much cars in the city centres creates an anonomous feeling among people. You see only windscreens and no faces.

Just wondering what is the most pedestrianfriendly city (city with fewest cars and most pedestrian-zones) in North America? Is it Quebec City or Boston?

Quebec City looks like a difficult city for drivers. A skein of Narrow streets is always a deterrant for drivers.


Boston seems to have lots of small narrowstreets which makes driving complicated.


But DownTown Houston has only straight streets forming a squarelike city centre. This is probably the easiest and most pleasant city for driving, but not a place where you want to take a stroll on a sunday afternoon.

Last edited by Magnus Brage; December 13th, 2010 at 10:00 PM.
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Old December 14th, 2010, 03:08 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonysnob View Post
Thats a pretty bold statement. Nowadays people seem pretty quick to bash cars, saying that everyone should use public transit ... this of course ignores why people abandoned public transit for cars in the first place ...
Government enforced land use policies and massive subsidies to roads?

It seems that the government forced people to use cars as opposed to some market-driven shift.
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Old December 14th, 2010, 03:49 AM   #58
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The cities should be in the first people friendly. If the people sit in their cars or not is the second issue. IMHO these cities that had huge boulevard with many lanes were same full with cars but much more uglier than the cities with narrow streets also full with cars. Anyway, there has to be some compromise to the both.

Thus. All the traffic that just transits through the center should be eliminated, or moved underground into the tunnels. Traffic that originates out of the center should take either these tunnels or very few radial freeways that stop where the real center starts. There should be available parking lots in public parking facilities. The enterance to the city center should be available, however limited. This is simple to do with either some sort of id gates for the supplying traffic and proffesions that have to attend the site of their work with car. Further traffic in the city center is unnecessary as most city centers are easily doable either on feet or with few stops of public transport within the city center limits. There is no reason why all should drive to the front of their work doors. The permits might be granted to these that prove private parking facilities within their job sites. Also if there are shopping facilities that require car acces for customers they should be equipped with private parking facilities, shopping on the site would also work as permit through the city center gates. Overall the complete number of cars that are allowed in the city center could be easily controlled in this way.

The nicest cities and places inside them are car less and mostly pedestrian zones. This comes from the simple fact. People are much smaller than cars. Therefore the space that they require to feel coasy and naturall is of much smaller proportions than that of cars. Therefore, the whole idea of car friendly city evolves from false consideration of the human psychology. On the other side, if we take the city not as a social place where we live and do our daily wherebouts but only as a place where we have to travel from place A where we live to the place B where we work and place C where we shop and then back, moreover, if we consider ourselves divided from the society (by social status, culture, whatever) and prefer our car as a protection shell accomodating this movement, then we can hypothesize about the car friendly cities.

Freeway will allways split the city community unless it is somewhere underground or somewhere above the roofs.
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Old December 14th, 2010, 10:30 AM   #59
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I'm a little busy to rebuff this idea that cities should be made only considering humans (we could build cities ignoring the needs for electricity systems (artificial and un-human lifts?), or telecommunications (ugly cell antennas?), or sewer or whatever.

However, I dare to say about Venice: it might be a "lovely" place to visit and spend a weekend, but a hell of a place to live, where everything costs 30% more than in the continent 4km away, where you could easily have to pay € 80 for a boat to deliver you a new fridge or € 200 if you are building a new set of sofas and puffs for you room. Not surprisingly, population in Venice has been declining since WW-1.
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Old December 14th, 2010, 11:36 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus Brage View Post
So is there a city which is completely closed to motor-traffic at all times? Probably Venice, Italy. I did'nt see any cars there but motorboats, even the carpenters, bricklayers and other handymen took their equipment by gondolas, it was very pleasant to walk in a city without any cars at all. I wonder if there are any ambulance-boats there.
Of course, ambulances, police, taxis, all run by boat.

Venice is not forbidden to cars: it is impossible for cars to get in simply because there are no roads.
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