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Old January 3rd, 2012, 01:46 PM   #181
hofburg
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there are many places where it's still present. I remember also Duino/Devin rest area. but that's because these signs are old. however Zagor's jacket isn't that old I guess, just a bit nostalgic
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Old January 3rd, 2012, 04:20 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
When you enter the restaurant at the Gonars Nord rest area on A4 near the junction with A23 on the left there is a sign warning people not to buy stuff from illegal seller. It's written in many languages and next to each language there is the flag. There is also the old Yugoslavian flag with red star.
I dont know if it was Gonars Nord but we were comming from Switzerland and entered Italy and on the first Gas Satation on the Motorway we made a break and i went to the Toilette and saw such a sign
The Flag ist pitched on and has nothing to do with the Jacket,but my Jacket is realy old
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Old January 3rd, 2012, 11:03 PM   #183
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South Ramp Col du Glandon/Croix der Fer

















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Old January 8th, 2012, 06:58 PM   #184
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Grossglockner Hochalpenstrasse



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Old January 8th, 2012, 09:57 PM   #185
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Old January 11th, 2012, 07:42 AM   #186
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Stifser Joch - the nerly highest pass


With the opening 2012 it's tolled!

Last edited by ptscout; January 11th, 2012 at 08:24 AM.
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Old January 11th, 2012, 10:05 AM   #187
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Only from south Tirol side.
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Old January 11th, 2012, 11:52 AM   #188
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Is Passo Stelvio going to be tolled now? It it means a longer opening seasoning and better pavement, signaling and enforcement (particularly against unruly motorbikes going 80km/h uphill), I'm all for it.

They should also put an order in the mess at the summit with all those stores displaying merchandise in a makeshift "street market", maybe organizing the concessions and substituting some of the restaurants for an Autogrill or something.
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Old January 11th, 2012, 12:02 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist
They should also put an order in the mess at the summit with all those stores displaying merchandise in a makeshift "street market", maybe organizing the concessions and substituting some of the restaurants for an Autogrill or something.
Why? Is thypical for that place, what's wrong with that?
How much will the toll be?
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Old January 11th, 2012, 03:11 PM   #190
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From what I understand (latest update here), the situation is still not clear. What is, however, clear to me is that an Autogrill at the summit would be the end of all mountain road trip romance that there could ever be on the Stelvio.

If you look at the large number of road tourists that come to the Stelvio every year, you'd say that they pay enough local tourist tax and VAT to properly maintain the pass road. Maybe even to open it slightly earlier and to keep it open slightly longer. Personally, I think that the idea is a shame.
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Old January 11th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It it means a longer opening seasoning and better pavement, signaling and enforcement (particularly against unruly motorbikes going 80km/h uphill), I'm all for it.
No, it means that South Tiroler government is trying to squeeze out of it most money possible.
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Old January 11th, 2012, 04:50 PM   #192
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Why? Is thypical for that place, what's wrong with that?
It is a mess at looks like Third World. Just look at more civilized Alpine passes in Italy and abroad like Passo Rombo (a good example of a nicely organized Alpine Road Pass), Passo San Gottardo, Col du Bonette, Fürkapaß... you can have some nice stores, but it doesn't need to look like the stereotypical African roadise stop.

Look, I drove there last August, loved the road, the views and the twists (just didn't like the motor bikers thinking the road is mostly theirs so they can abuse cars by speeding, staying in blind spots or forcing you to almost stop for their groups). What I didn't like what the mess at the summit, didn't even take much photos because it was such a big let down.

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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
What is, however, clear to me is that an Autogrill at the summit would be the end of all mountain road trip romance that there could ever be on the Stelvio.
It doesn't need to be an Autogrill. I actually meant something more organized. Anything more organized. Keep the souvenir stores in a sort-of indoor mall instead of the open space right by the road.

Quote:
Maybe even to open it slightly earlier and to keep it open slightly longer.
I think they should strive to open the Stelvio from Mid-March to mid-November if there isn't much early snow in the season. It is a very good road in the sense of not being subject to serious avalanche risks like Passo Gardena or to an extent Passo dello Spluga.

They could keep the pass even open year-round if they wanted to, or let's say, 42-45 weeks per year.
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Old January 11th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
From what I understand (latest update here), the situation is still not clear. What is, however, clear to me is that an Autogrill at the summit would be the end of all mountain road trip romance that there could ever be on the Stelvio.

If you look at the large number of road tourists that come to the Stelvio every year, you'd say that they pay enough local tourist tax and VAT to properly maintain the pass road. Maybe even to open it slightly earlier and to keep it open slightly longer. Personally, I think that the idea is a shame.
The Landesregierung is shure: http://www.provinz.bz.it/lpa/service...=650&width=850
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Old January 11th, 2012, 05:10 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It is a mess at looks like Third World. Just look at more civilized Alpine passes in Italy and abroad like Passo Rombo (a good example of a nicely organized Alpine Road Pass), Passo San Gottardo, Col du Bonette, Fürkapaß... you can have some nice stores, but it doesn't need to look like the stereotypical African roadise stop.
I see where you are coming from, but I also think that the Stelvio is in a league of its own when it comes to Alpine road pass tourism. It is the pass in the Alps that everybody wants to clinch and it fits in perfectly with other nice pass roads in the area - which makes for a perfect day trip. And that brings in alpine pass tourism in numbers incomparable to those of other pass routes.

Those large numbers translate into the type of rat race that you describe, with motorists behaving badly, vendors from hundreds of kilometers away sensing the sales opportunity etc. Those vendors are not going to hire a store. So yes, welcome to the Third World roadside stop. I believe that it is inevitable to a fairly large degree.

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That is the point made in the article to which I linked earlier. The Landesregierung states that the province of Sondrio is no longer objecting. To which the Sondrio provincial government apparently responded: "we have not changed our position."
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Old January 11th, 2012, 05:47 PM   #195
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Quote:
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I see where you are coming from, but I also think that the Stelvio is in a league of its own when it comes to Alpine road pass tourism. It is the pass in the Alps that everybody wants to clinch and it fits in perfectly with other nice pass roads in the area - which makes for a perfect day trip. And that brings in alpine pass tourism in numbers incomparable to those of other pass routes.
Sure. I traveled through most Alpine passes and the Stelvio is surely the one with the highest traffic/infrastructure over there.

Quote:
Those large numbers translate into the type of rat race that you describe, with motorists behaving badly, vendors from hundreds of kilometers away sensing the sales opportunity etc. Those vendors are not going to hire a store. So yes, welcome to the Third World roadside stop. I believe that it is inevitable to a fairly large degree.
They could organize vendors in an open market with standardized kiosks at least. As for drivers: cameras and fines for those making infractions. Out of danger/narrowness, most 4-wheel-vehicle drivers are virtually forced to behave. The problem is mostly with motorbikes. Some cyclists also misbehave a lot, especially downhill, but they are a minor nuisance - except when they are in large numbers and decide just to take over the road, making uphill traffic dangerous.
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Old January 11th, 2012, 06:51 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist

It is a mess at looks like Third World. Just look at more civilized Alpine passes in Italy and abroad like Passo Rombo (a good example of a nicely organized Alpine Road Pass), Passo San Gottardo, Col du Bonette, Fürkapaß... you can have some nice stores, but it doesn't need to look like the stereotypical African roadise stop.
With that reasonment you should also close traditional markets in medieval towns or stands at beach resorts because they can look messy. But until they pay taxes and respect local laws about commerce there is nothing bad. It would be bad close all traditional shops and fit them in an ugly department store that doesn't fit with alpine landscape.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 11th, 2012, 08:20 PM   #197
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Not only traditional markets. Particularly in tourist seasons, you will find plenty of salesmen walking around the city centres of Italian towns just selling whatever merchandise they happen to have at the time. If you want to clean up the Stelvio in this manner, you'd also need to clean up Milan, Venice, Florence, Rome, etc. I don't see the need to.

As far as that's concerned, a larger focus on road safety should have higher priority on the Stelvio route. Just get a few cops out there that fine road users behaving dangerously.
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Old January 11th, 2012, 09:29 PM   #198
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Not only traditional markets. Particularly in tourist seasons, you will find plenty of salesmen walking around the city centres of Italian towns just selling whatever merchandise they happen to have at the time. If you want to clean up the Stelvio in this manner, you'd also need to clean up Milan, Venice, Florence, Rome, etc. I don't see the need to.
Yes. I totally agree with police raids in areas that make Italy looks like Central Africa in terms of lack of organization, illegal activities and vendor harassment, like the Duomo in Milano, Campi dei Fiori and, the worst, the area around Campi dei Miracoli in Pisa, an horror beyond any level of acceptability.

In any case: that problems exist down the mountain is not a justification to accept them in the summit.
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Old January 11th, 2012, 10:23 PM   #199
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I was of course referring to sellers, not to harrassers as you see them in the places that you mention. The type of folk that tends to operate in the major towns but off places like the Duomo in Milan (Castello Sforzesco is worse, by the way), the Campo dei Fiori etc. But in terms of lack of organisation in Italy, or an overflow in illegal activities - you've got to be honest that that has been all over the Italian place ever since unification. If not longer.

My message does remain the same: act against excesses both on the Stelvio and in those city centres, leave the minor stuff apart.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 12:54 AM   #200
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Finaly i wrote down the alpine passes i drived with a motorcycle

Austria
- Radstädter Tauernpass(Twenger Talpass)
- Grossglockner Hochalpenstrasse(Edelweissspitze/Kaiser Franz-Josef Höhe)
- Gerlos Alpenstrasse(Pass,neue Trasse)
- Nockalm Höhenstrasse
- Turracher Höhe
- Gailbergsattel
- Plöckenpass/Passo di Monte Croce Carnico
- Nassfeldpass/Passo Pramollo
- Felbertauernstrasse
- Pustertaler Höhenstrasse
- Zillertaler Höhenstrasse
- Kühtai-Sattel
- Ötztaler Gletscherstrasse(Pitztaler Jöchl/Tifenbachferner)
- Timmelsjoch/Passo Rombo
- Piller Höhe
- Hahntennjoch
- Kaunertaler Gletscherstrasse
- Gaichtpass
- Engpass
- Fernpass
- Leutaschklamm(Buchener Höhe)
- Möserer Höhe
- Seefelder Sattel
- St.Magdalena Saline
- Gnadenwalder Höhenstrasse
- Pass Thurn
- Griessenpass
- Pass Luftenstein
- Pass Strub
- Kniepass
- Filzensattel
- Dientner Sattel
- Brennerpass/Passo Brennero
- Reschenpass/Passo Resia
- Stallersattel/Passo Stalle
- Iselsberg
- Kartitscher Sattel
- Kreuzberg
- Windische Höhe
- Kleiner Loiblpass
- Schaida Sattel
- Soboth
- Weinebenesattel
- Klippitztörl
- Hochtannbergpass
- Faschinajoch
- Malta Höhenstrasse
- Katschbergpass
- Schönfeldsattel
- Flattnitzer Höhe
- Hochrindl
- Silvretta Hochalpenstrasse
- Furkajoch
- Flexenpass
- Arlbergpass
- Norberthöhe
- Pass Gschütt
- Silzer Sattel
- Holzleitensattel

Switzerland
- Albulapass
- Julierpass
- Ofenpass
- Forcola di Livigno
- Umbrailpass
- Passo del Bernina
- Malojapass
- Passo del San Bernardino
- Glaspass
- Splügenpass/Passo della Spluga
- Oberalppass
- Klausenpass
- St.Gotthardpass
- Sustenpass
- Furkapass
- Grimselpass
- Nufenenpass
- Simplonpass
- Col du Grand St. Bernard
- Staffelegg
- Glaubenbielenpass
- Brünigpass
- Göscheneralp
- Col des Mosses
- Wasserfluh
- Kräzerenpass/Schwägalp
- Engpass
- Flüelapass
- Lenzerheide/Valbella
- Col de la Forclaz


Germany
- Riedbergpass
- Oberjoch
- Kesselberg
- Achenpass
- Spitzingsattel
- Sudelfeld
- Klobensteinpass
- Masererpass
- Ursprungpass
- Steinpass
- Porta Claudia

Slovenia
- Korensko Sedlo/Wurzenpass
- Vršič
- Predel
- Mangart
- Petrovo Brdo
- Bohinjsko Sedlo
- Vrata
- Učja/Uccea
- Kambreško/Kolovrat
- Ljubelj/Loiblpass
- Jelovica
- Jezersko/Seebergsattel
- Pavličevo Sedlo/Paulitschsattel
- Sleme


Italia
- Passo del Cason die Lanza
- Forcella di Lius
- Monte Zoncolan
- Panoramica delle Vette
- Forcella Lavardet
- Sella di Razzo
- Sella Ciampigotto
- Passo Mauria
- Passo del Pura
- Forcella die Monte Rest
- Sella Nevea
- Sella Carnizza
- Passo di San Osvaldo
- Monte Grappa
- Valico di Valbona(Passo Coe/Bocchetta degli Alpini)
- Passo Monte Croce di Comelico/Kreuzbergpass
- Col Sant´Angelo
- Tre Cime di Lavaredo
- Passo tre Croci
- Passo Furcia/Furkelsattel
- Passo di Valparola
- Passo di Falzarego
- Passo di Giau(Colle Sta.Lucia)
- Forcella Staulanza
- Passo Cibiana
- Passo delle Erbe/Würzjoch(Passo Eores/Luson)
- Passo Gardena/Grödnerjoch
- Passo Campolongo
- Passo di Sella/Sellajoch
- Passo Pordoi
- Passo di Fedaia
- Passo Nigra(Brie)
- Passo die Karezza/Karerpass
- Passo Lavaze/Lavezejoch(Passo Pramadiccio)
- Passo d´Oclini(Joch Grimm)
- Passo San Pellegrino
- Passo di Vales
- Passo Rolle
- Passo di Monte Giovo/Jaufenpass
- Passo di Pennes/Penserjoch
- Passo dello Stelvio/Stilfserjoch
- Passe del Tonale
- Passo Campo Carlo Magno
- Monte Baldo(Cavallo di Novezza/Passo Pozza die Cola/Bocca Tratto Spin/Bocca di Navene/Bocca del Creen)
- Passo Manghen
- Passo del Brocon
- Passo Gobbera
- Mont Rovere/Kaiserjägerstrasse
- Passo della Borcola
- Passo di Foscagno(Passo d´Eira)
- Passo Gavia
- Passo del Mortirolo(Passo di Foppa/Passo di Guspesa)
- Passo del Vivione
- Goletto di Gadino(Goletto Gaver)
- Passo di Croce Domini(Giogo della Bala/Goletto delle Crocette)
- Passo del Maniva(Passo del Mare/Passo della Spina/Passo della Berga/Passo del Dosso Alto)
- Passo di San Marco
- Colle/Kohlern
- Passo di Palade/Gampenjoch
- Passo di Mendola/Mendelpass(Kalterer Höhe/Penegal)
- Passo Pinei/Panidersattel
- Passo San Lugano
- Passo die Cereda(Forcella Aurine/Forcella Franche)
- Passo Duran
- Cimabanche/Gemärkpass
- Sella di Dobbiaco/Toblacher Bergsattel
- Passo Redebus
- Passo Forcella
- Passo Vezzena
- Passo Sommo
- Valico della Fricca
- Passo Xomo
- Pian delle Fugazze
- Passo Durone
- Passo San Antonio
- Cima Sappada
- Sella Valcalda
- Sella di Cereschiatis
- Sella Chiampon
- Sella Chianzutan
- Sella di Camporosso
- Monte Mottarone
- Passo di Tanamea
- Passo di Fusine
- Colle Zambla
- Passo della Presolana
- Val d´Algone
- Passo Ballino
- Passo Udalrico
- Monte Bondone
- Passo San Giovanni
- Tremosine
- Passo San Rocco
- Passo Pertica
- Passo Ampola
- Passo Xon
- Passo d´Aprica
- Passo Monte Croce
- Paso Andalo
- Serrada
- Passo della Morte
- Jenesien(Schermoos Sattel)
- Raffensteiner Strasse

France
- Col des Gets(Col de Chatillon)
- Col des Montets
- Col de Saisies
- Col du Pre
- Cormet de Roselend
- Col d´Iseran(Col de la Madeleine)
- Col du Telegraphe
- Col du Galibier
- Col du Lautaret
- Alpe d´Huez
- Col du Glandon
- Col de la Croix de Fer
- Col de la Madeleine
- Col du Petit St. Bernard
- Col d´Izoard
- Col de Vars
- Col de l´Echelle
- Col du Mont Cenis
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