Seattle and centralization

Cloudscraper · November 3rd, 2007, 05:56 PM

In the Chicago forum, a forumer asked if Chicago was the most centralized US city. I think that Seattle could give Chicago a run for it's money, if not even be more centralized than Chicago. So what is the scoop Seattle peeps? Do any suburbs or satellite cities challenge the dominance of downtown Seattle in any significant way? I believe i remember reading a few years back that new office construction in downtown Seattle outpaced construction in all it's suburbs combined, and was the only american city to do that. What is the downtown Seattles share of office and hotel space in the metro area?

taiwanesedrummer36 · November 3rd, 2007, 08:57 PM

Hhmmm......those are good questions. There are many major employers all over the region (north - Boeing, east - Microsoft, Nintendo, south - Kent Valley industry, more south - Port of Tacoma), but many people still seem to commute from the outside to the inside (downtown Seattle).

citruspastels · November 3rd, 2007, 09:34 PM

i dont know i find it hilarious that seattle could even be considered centralized considering we have no rail system to fill up and empty the city at night in any kind of efficient way ;-)

but when i think about it, the only city that comes remotely close is bellevue. but even then not really. seattle has alot of cultural dominance over the region. seattle is much to the pacfic northwest as chicago is to the midwest.

when it comes down to the numbers though, i think you'll find its a suprisingly decentralized region.

bgwah · November 3rd, 2007, 11:03 PM

Definitely not as much as Chicago. I've never really thought about it, and I guess Seattle might be centralized when compared to the average American city, but... Well, there are a lot of people in the suburbs who almost never go to Seattle--maybe only 1-3 times a year. So I don't really know if I would describe Seattle as centralized.

mhays · November 3rd, 2007, 11:25 PM

About 40% of our region's rented or rentable office space is Downtown. I suspect Chicago is over 50%. I wouldn't surprised if it was substantially higher than even that. Chicago has a bigger downtown than its metro population would suggest. That's not just because it's centralized but also due to what I expect is the region's heavy percentage of office jobs vs. other jobs.

BTW, it's important to note that brokerages have extremely different standards from one city to another, and from one brokerage company to another. This includes what types of space they count, and whether their "downtown" district is the entire central city, just the CBD, or something in between. So you can't use brokerage reports to accurately compare cities. In fact, apparently, no accurate comparison exists.

Back to Seattle. If you include Microsoft, Boeing, and other owner-occupied buildings, which the brokerage houses mostly don't, the percentage would tilt a little more toward the suburbs. If you include government-owned offices, Downtown's share might grow a bit again.

Downtown Seattle had a fair amount of office construction early in the decade when very little other space was being built locally. I'm thinking 2002-2005, when we got IDX Tower, NuWaMu, 5th & Bell, Fifth & Jackson, the Federal Courthouse, etc.

Today, Downtown has about 2,500,000 sf of commercial office space under construction -- a lot by our standards. But Downtown Bellevue has about 1,500,000 sf underway, and other Eastside areas have at least that much also, meaning the Eastside has at least 3,000,000 sf underway. The other suburbs don't have a huge amount going up though they do have some.

What's impressive is that our two downtowns have 4,000,000 sf underway. If by "central" you can include both of our major centers, then yes, the Seattle area's office construction and office inventory are pretty centralized.

mhays · November 3rd, 2007, 11:48 PM

On a few other points...

The region is fairly centralized with major arts institution. The Seattle Art Museum, the Seattle Opera, the Pacific Northwest Ballet, the Seattle Symphony, the Intiman Theater, the Seattle Rep, the Experience Music Project, the Pacific Science Center, and so on are all in Greater Downtown. Same with other performance halls including the 5th Avenue, the Moore, and the Paramount. Also smaller organizations like the Frye Art Gallery and the Wing Luke Museum (larger new one being built). Also within Seattle are the museums at the UW (The Henry, the Burke), the Museum of History & Industry, and the Museum of Flight. Seattle has the vast majority of museums locally. I'm not counting Tacoma, which has developed into quite a museum city.

Downtown Seattle has good retail. The days of the whole metro doing their shopping here are long past, and we're behind areas like Southcenter and Downtown Bellevue in terms of spending by locals, but we have tremendous spending by tourists, we get our share of "special occasion" shoppers from around the metro, and we get significant spending by Downtown workers and people who live within a few miles. Greater Downtown collectively has probably three or four million square feet of retail space, of which about 1,600,000 sf are in our 20-acre main Retail District...the equivalent of our largest regional mall.

Speaking of tourism -- Downtown Seattle gets a large share of our region's tourists. Some cities (LA comes to mind) spread their tourists all over. We also have major attractions outside Downtown, like the Ballard Locks, the zoo, Snoqualmie Falls, and so on. But Downtown itself gets an unusually large share, with the Pike Place Market, the Central Waterfront, the Retail District, the Seattle Center (Space Needle, EMP, PSC, etc.), Pioneer Square, etc. Even a ferry ride usually means starting Downtown.

***Bond James Bond*** · November 4th, 2007, 02:10 AM

With an office center in Bellevue - not to mention MS in Redmond - I don't see this as being true.

blackc5 · November 4th, 2007, 04:35 AM

Great info mhays - thanks for sharing.

Cloudscraper · November 4th, 2007, 02:53 PM

Thanks for all the great info guys. And just because a couple major corporations are located in suburban Seattle, doesn't negate the fact that Seattle is very centralized. Chicago, with 54% of the entire metro areas office space located in downtown Chicago, creating an ultra centralized powerhouse of an urban core, has many of it's largest corporations headquartered in the suburbs. McDonalds, Sears, Motorola, Allstate, Sara Lee, and Baxter, basically a who's who of corporate Illinois all have suburban Chicago headquarters!

If the figure of 40% of the entire metro's office space being downtown is accurate, then Seattle is very centralized by American standards.

Brandon1978 · November 6th, 2007, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgwah

Definitely not as much as Chicago. I've never really thought about it, and I guess Seattle might be centralized when compared to the average American city, but... Well, there are a lot of people in the suburbs who almost never go to Seattle--maybe only 1-3 times a year. So I don't really know if I would describe Seattle as centralized.

How's Sammamish working out for you? :-)

jessejb · November 6th, 2007, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgwah

Well, there are a lot of people in the suburbs who almost never go to Seattle--maybe only 1-3 times a year.

That is so painfully true. I've talked to people that straight up brag about never going to the city because of shootings and traffic. And everything they need is in their suburb. These are the same people who are telling me they are totally going to protest if they ever build light rail to their "city".

CityView Jim · November 6th, 2007, 04:33 AM

Can we just build a moat?

XiaoBai · November 6th, 2007, 04:51 AM

^
Lake Washington isn't big enough?

CrazyAboutCities · November 6th, 2007, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jessejb

That is so painfully true. I've talked to people that straight up brag about never going to the city because of shootings and traffic. And everything they need is in their suburb. These are the same people who are telling me they are totally going to protest if they ever build light rail to their "city".

Yeah. That is somehow too common for suburban people. Same thing for another cities too. That's how suburban people do.

CrazyAboutCities · November 6th, 2007, 05:08 AM

Well... Microsoft, Amazon.com, possibly Google and Yahoo!, Group Health Inc., and this "mysterious" company (Paul Allen announced it and didn't say the name of the company yet but I suspect it might be Walt Disney or Johnson & Johnson) are going to expand their offices in downtown Seattle. Soon we will see more big name companies locate in downtown Seattle. We still have many headquarters/corporate offices in the suburbs.

November 3rd, 2007, 05:56 PM	#1
Cloudscraper Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Detroit Posts: 22 Likes (Received): 0	Seattle and centralization In the Chicago forum, a forumer asked if Chicago was the most centralized US city. I think that Seattle could give Chicago a run for it's money, if not even be more centralized than Chicago. So what is the scoop Seattle peeps? Do any suburbs or satellite cities challenge the dominance of downtown Seattle in any significant way? I believe i remember reading a few years back that new office construction in downtown Seattle outpaced construction in all it's suburbs combined, and was the only american city to do that. What is the downtown Seattles share of office and hotel space in the metro area?

November 3rd, 2007, 08:57 PM	#2
taiwanesedrummer36 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Little Taipei, Everett Posts: 1,047 Likes (Received): 0	Hhmmm......those are good questions. There are many major employers all over the region (north - Boeing, east - Microsoft, Nintendo, south - Kent Valley industry, more south - Port of Tacoma), but many people still seem to commute from the outside to the inside (downtown Seattle). __________________ Everett/Snohomish County Development News Thread

November 4th, 2007, 02:10 AM	#7
*Bond James Bond* Licence to kill. Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Apple Maggot Quarantine Area Posts: 6,996	With an office center in Bellevue - not to mention MS in Redmond - I don't see this as being true. __________________ Please DO NOT "like" any of my posts or request "friend" status. I don't care if you like me, or my posts. Thank you. - If you do either of these more than once you will be put on my ignore list.

November 6th, 2007, 04:51 AM	#13
XiaoBai 逍遥法外 Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Shanghai上海 Posts: 708 Likes (Received): 1	^ Lake Washington isn't big enough? __________________ 知之为知之，不知为不知

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November 3rd, 2007, 09:34 PM	#3
citruspastels Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 690 Likes (Received): 3	i dont know i find it hilarious that seattle could even be considered centralized considering we have no rail system to fill up and empty the city at night in any kind of efficient way ;-) but when i think about it, the only city that comes remotely close is bellevue. but even then not really. seattle has alot of cultural dominance over the region. seattle is much to the pacfic northwest as chicago is to the midwest. when it comes down to the numbers though, i think you'll find its a suprisingly decentralized region.

November 3rd, 2007, 11:03 PM	#4
bgwah honk!!! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 1,752 Likes (Received): 78	Definitely not as much as Chicago. I've never really thought about it, and I guess Seattle might be centralized when compared to the average American city, but... Well, there are a lot of people in the suburbs who almost never go to Seattle--maybe only 1-3 times a year. So I don't really know if I would describe Seattle as centralized.

November 3rd, 2007, 11:25 PM	#5
mhays Journeyman Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 8,394 Likes (Received): 119	About 40% of our region's rented or rentable office space is Downtown. I suspect Chicago is over 50%. I wouldn't surprised if it was substantially higher than even that. Chicago has a bigger downtown than its metro population would suggest. That's not just because it's centralized but also due to what I expect is the region's heavy percentage of office jobs vs. other jobs. BTW, it's important to note that brokerages have extremely different standards from one city to another, and from one brokerage company to another. This includes what types of space they count, and whether their "downtown" district is the entire central city, just the CBD, or something in between. So you can't use brokerage reports to accurately compare cities. In fact, apparently, no accurate comparison exists. Back to Seattle. If you include Microsoft, Boeing, and other owner-occupied buildings, which the brokerage houses mostly don't, the percentage would tilt a little more toward the suburbs. If you include government-owned offices, Downtown's share might grow a bit again. Downtown Seattle had a fair amount of office construction early in the decade when very little other space was being built locally. I'm thinking 2002-2005, when we got IDX Tower, NuWaMu, 5th & Bell, Fifth & Jackson, the Federal Courthouse, etc. Today, Downtown has about 2,500,000 sf of commercial office space under construction -- a lot by our standards. But Downtown Bellevue has about 1,500,000 sf underway, and other Eastside areas have at least that much also, meaning the Eastside has at least 3,000,000 sf underway. The other suburbs don't have a huge amount going up though they do have some. What's impressive is that our two downtowns have 4,000,000 sf underway. If by "central" you can include both of our major centers, then yes, the Seattle area's office construction and office inventory are pretty centralized.

November 3rd, 2007, 11:48 PM	#6
mhays Journeyman Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 8,394 Likes (Received): 119	On a few other points... The region is fairly centralized with major arts institution. The Seattle Art Museum, the Seattle Opera, the Pacific Northwest Ballet, the Seattle Symphony, the Intiman Theater, the Seattle Rep, the Experience Music Project, the Pacific Science Center, and so on are all in Greater Downtown. Same with other performance halls including the 5th Avenue, the Moore, and the Paramount. Also smaller organizations like the Frye Art Gallery and the Wing Luke Museum (larger new one being built). Also within Seattle are the museums at the UW (The Henry, the Burke), the Museum of History & Industry, and the Museum of Flight. Seattle has the vast majority of museums locally. I'm not counting Tacoma, which has developed into quite a museum city. Downtown Seattle has good retail. The days of the whole metro doing their shopping here are long past, and we're behind areas like Southcenter and Downtown Bellevue in terms of spending by locals, but we have tremendous spending by tourists, we get our share of "special occasion" shoppers from around the metro, and we get significant spending by Downtown workers and people who live within a few miles. Greater Downtown collectively has probably three or four million square feet of retail space, of which about 1,600,000 sf are in our 20-acre main Retail District...the equivalent of our largest regional mall. Speaking of tourism -- Downtown Seattle gets a large share of our region's tourists. Some cities (LA comes to mind) spread their tourists all over. We also have major attractions outside Downtown, like the Ballard Locks, the zoo, Snoqualmie Falls, and so on. But Downtown itself gets an unusually large share, with the Pike Place Market, the Central Waterfront, the Retail District, the Seattle Center (Space Needle, EMP, PSC, etc.), Pioneer Square, etc. Even a ferry ride usually means starting Downtown.

November 4th, 2007, 04:35 AM	#8
blackc5 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 490 Likes (Received): 8	Great info mhays - thanks for sharing.

November 4th, 2007, 02:53 PM	#9
Cloudscraper Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Detroit Posts: 22 Likes (Received): 0	Thanks for all the great info guys. And just because a couple major corporations are located in suburban Seattle, doesn't negate the fact that Seattle is very centralized. Chicago, with 54% of the entire metro areas office space located in downtown Chicago, creating an ultra centralized powerhouse of an urban core, has many of it's largest corporations headquartered in the suburbs. McDonalds, Sears, Motorola, Allstate, Sara Lee, and Baxter, basically a who's who of corporate Illinois all have suburban Chicago headquarters! If the figure of 40% of the entire metro's office space being downtown is accurate, then Seattle is very centralized by American standards.

November 6th, 2007, 04:33 AM	#12
CityView Jim Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,965 Likes (Received): 64	Can we just build a moat?

November 6th, 2007, 05:08 AM	#15
CrazyAboutCities Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 8,332 Likes (Received): 17	Well... Microsoft, Amazon.com, possibly Google and Yahoo!, Group Health Inc., and this "mysterious" company (Paul Allen announced it and didn't say the name of the company yet but I suspect it might be Walt Disney or Johnson & Johnson) are going to expand their offices in downtown Seattle. Soon we will see more big name companies locate in downtown Seattle. We still have many headquarters/corporate offices in the suburbs.