States with 2 flagship universities: degree of academic overlap

[edsg25]

Traditonally the difference between the older state flagship universities and the land grant flagships that followed is this:

• the older schools (a good percentage named Univ of ____)were the ones with the more heavily liberal arts programs and the site of the law and medical schools. They usually were the ones with the most traditon and higher academic reputation

• the landgrants (normally ___ State Univ) were heavily weighed towards agriculture and the sciences, often started as colleges and achieved university status by mid-20th century

Today, as the needs for general education for so many students exploded after WWII, the mission of both schools has convurged to a degree with a great deal of overlapping curriculum. During this time, the landgrant school (such as Michigan State) has gained its own medical and law schools) and strengthed its liberal arts offerings.

If your state has two flagships, has the curriculum of both schools tended to converge, giving them a lot of overlap or has the land grant stuck closer to its original mission? And how would you assess the academic quality of the two schools in realtionship with each other?

The following examples may or may not have come together in the way described but they are examples of what I would identify as two flagship set ups:

Mich-MSU
IU-Purdue
Ia-Ia St
KU-KState
OU-Okla St
Colo-Colo St
Wash-Was St
Ore-Ore St
Cal-UCLA
Tex-TAMU
Miss-Miss St
Ala-Aub
Fla-FSU
UNC-NCSU
Va-VT
UA-ASU

There are others. If you would like to share, how do these two schools in your state compare on scope of curriculum and academic rank and quality?

[Paddington]

In Ohio, the first tier of state schools are Ohio State and Miami University. The second tier would be followed by Cincinnati and Ohio, since these schools still attract students from around the state. In the third tier, would be Wright State and Toledo, because of their graduate/professional programs. That would leave Kent State, Bowling Green, Cleveland State, Akron, and Youngstown as primarily regional undergraduate schools. Of course there are those who may disagree.

Miami University used to have the best undergraduate academics of any of the state school's in Ohio, but I believe Ohio State has now matched them in terms of standardized test scores, which is surprising if you see the average undergraduate student walking around at Ohio State. Miami lacks Ohio state's graduate programs, and isn't a match in terms of research as OSU's medical school alone gets $200 million+ in grants from the federal government. That said though, I think Miami University is still a better learning environment for undergraduates than drink and football crazed Ohio State.

[krazeeboi]

USC and Clemson are also good examples here and fit perfectly. There isn't as much curriculum overlap between the two, and while Clemson still has the agriculture thing going, it also has notable engineering and architecture programs. If you want to go by the US News & World Report rankings, it ranks higher than USC. USC's focus lately has been to heighten its research profile, which it has really been successful at doing lately.

[NovaWolverine]

UVA and VaTech do have some overlap. Both have engineering programs but VT's program is overall regarded higher while UVA does have some more specialized aspects that are better than VT like biomedical engineering. VT definitely has more of a agricultural and geo-science emphasis. So VT is probably the more engineering and tech related school while pre-med, business, law and some other liberal arts UVA is better. But there is overlap. VT is no slouch when it comes to academics. William and Mary isn't a flagship, but it offers a lot of the liberal arts emphasis that VT and UVA don't have. James Madison University is one who's reputation has been rapidly growing, it's a very respectable and fun school but is not easy to get into. More like UVA than VT w/ respect to academic programs. George Mason is interesting. It's definitely growing rapidly and trying to lose the commuter school image which it is. But it's kinda all over the place w/ academics like a lot of "___ State" and "____ Tech" schools. One area it does seem to emphasize is poli-sci and economics due to its convenient location to DC.

[bobbycuzin]

i thought UCLA, UCSD, and UC berkeley were all pretty much flagship schools?

[gladisimo]

Berkeley is considered the flagship campus. UCLA is the big one in SoCal, but Cal is considered the flagship campus.

At least that's what I always thought.

[Pilliod Njaim]

In Ohio, the first tier of state schools are Ohio State and Miami University. The second tier would be followed by Cincinnati and Ohio, since these schools still attract students from around the state. In the third tier, would be Wright State and Toledo, because of their graduate/professional programs. That would leave Kent State, Bowling Green, Cleveland State, Akron, and Youngstown as primarily regional undergraduate schools. Of course there are those who may disagree.

According to US News & World Report, the rankings are not what you listed here. Ohio State and Miami are top tier. Ohio University is 2nd tier. Bowling Green and Cincinnati are 3rd tier. Everyone else is 4th tier. I personally don't agree with those rankings whatsoever, but that's what gets most widely published.

It's much better to look at flagship programs, not overall university rank. In Ohio, it goes as follows:

Engineering: Ohio State, Toledo
Business: Miami, Ohio State
Medical: Ohio State
Law: Ohio State, Cincinnati, Toledo
Pharmacy: Ohio State, Toledo, Cincinnati
Architecture: Cincinnati
Film: Ohio
Performing Arts: Ohio
Communications: Ohio
General Fine Arts: Ohio
Music: Bowling Green, Ohio, Cincinnati
Nursing: Kent State
Polymers: Akron
Solar Energy: Toledo
Agriculture: Ohio State
Education: Bowling Green, Kent State, Ohio State
Character Building: Ohio
Partying: Ohio
Homegrown Marijuana: Ohio
Campus: Ohio, Miami
College Town: Ohio, Bowling Green, Miami
Athletics: well, that's pretty easy....

Miami University used to have the best undergraduate academics of any of the state school's in Ohio, but I believe Ohio State has now matched them in terms of standardized test scores, which is surprising if you see the average undergraduate student walking around at Ohio State. Miami lacks Ohio state's graduate programs, and isn't a match in terms of research as OSU's medical school alone gets $200 million+ in grants from the federal government. That said though, I think Miami University is still a better learning environment for undergraduates than drink and football crazed Ohio State.

Paddington, I agree 100% that Miami is a better learning enviroment than OSU. OU is also a much better enviroment. The college towns are always better in my opinion. OU's campus and density makes it the most walkable college area in the state and it has very vibrant social scene. There also are few commuters unlike big city schools like Ohio State. Your assessment of Ohio State's football obsession is 100% accurate, however, the average Ohio State kid does not drink more than kids at other schools. They just drink, fight, and riot for football much more. Ohio University by far has the state's biggest drinking problem- 20 bars in two city blocks says it all. Then there's Palmerfest, Halloween, Mill Fest, Four Fest, High Fest, Oaktober Fest, Arktober Fest, etc., etc., etc.

In terms of general undergraduate admissions (not always the best way to measure a school since programs vary widely), Ohio State is toughest on standardized test scores. I think the average now is around a 26 ACT for general admission, which is close to 90th percentile nationwide. However, 26 ACT is also the average at OU's Tcom school, and would get you a nice rejection letter from the School of Journalism or Film. It all depends on what you want to major in.

Ohio State's medical school has clearly eclisped the other public schools in the state- nothing much to say about that other than they're good.

Despite their age and prowess, OU and Miami both are lacking in graduate programs. At Ohio, the only highly-ranked grad schools are in Film and Communications. Last year, OU's School of Engineering was the center of one of the largest plagiarism scandals in history.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by gladisimo

Berkeley is considered the flagship campus. UCLA is the big one in SoCal, but Cal is considered the flagship campus.

At least that's what I always thought.

My impression of the UC system is that it is fundamentally different from the other such systems in the nation which basically tend to run with a flagship and other institutions grouped together (i.e. Madison's relationsip with the UW system).

UC is a less differentiated system (in relationship to component parts) and the system with, by far, the highest sense of system identity (I'd put SUNY in there as a distant second). UC is set up with standards that also makes its institutions have a degree of similiarity not found elsewhere, as part of California's three tiered UC/CSU/JUCO hierarchy.

WIthin the UC system, there certainly is a feeling of a degree of equality between Cal and UCLA; they are the most known and the stars of the system. UCSD is certainly recognized as being one of the best in the system, too.

Ultimately I guess I'm saying is that there is not a lot that separates Cal and UCLA and UCLA doesn't feel and isn't in Cal's shaddow. Cal certainly does not represent the state of California the way U-M does Michigan or UVa does Virginia. Cal is not seen in LA and other parts of SoCal as being their school any more than UCD or UCSC is.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by Pilliod Njaim

In Ohio, the first tier of state schools are Ohio State and Miami University. The second tier would be followed by Cincinnati and Ohio, since these schools still attract students from around the state. In the third tier, would be Wright State and Toledo, because of their graduate/professional programs. That would leave Kent State, Bowling Green, Cleveland State, Akron, and Youngstown as primarily regional undergraduate schools. Of course there are those who may disagree.

According to US News & World Report, the rankings are not what you listed here. Ohio State and Miami are top tier. Ohio University is 2nd tier. Bowling Green and Cincinnati are 3rd tier. Everyone else is 4th tier. I personally don't agree with those rankings whatsoever, but that's what gets most widely published.

It's much better to look at flagship programs, not overall university rank. In Ohio, it goes as follows:

Engineering: Ohio State, Toledo
Business: Miami, Ohio State
Medical: Ohio State
Law: Ohio State, Cincinnati, Toledo
Pharmacy: Ohio State, Toledo, Cincinnati
Architecture: Cincinnati
Film: Ohio
Performing Arts: Ohio
Communications: Ohio
General Fine Arts: Ohio
Music: Bowling Green, Ohio, Cincinnati
Nursing: Kent State
Polymers: Akron
Solar Energy: Toledo
Agriculture: Ohio State
Education: Bowling Green, Kent State, Ohio State
Character Building: Ohio
Partying: Ohio
Homegrown Marijuana: Ohio
Campus: Ohio, Miami
College Town: Ohio, Bowling Green, Miami
Athletics: well, that's pretty easy....

Miami University used to have the best undergraduate academics of any of the state school's in Ohio, but I believe Ohio State has now matched them in terms of standardized test scores, which is surprising if you see the average undergraduate student walking around at Ohio State. Miami lacks Ohio state's graduate programs, and isn't a match in terms of research as OSU's medical school alone gets $200 million+ in grants from the federal government. That said though, I think Miami University is still a better learning environment for undergraduates than drink and football crazed Ohio State.

Paddington, I agree 100% that Miami is a better learning enviroment than OSU. OU is also a much better enviroment. The college towns are always better in my opinion. OU's campus and density makes it the most walkable college area in the state and it has very vibrant social scene. There also are few commuters unlike big city schools like Ohio State. Your assessment of Ohio State's football obsession is 100% accurate, however, the average Ohio State kid does not drink more than kids at other schools. They just drink, fight, and riot for football much more. Ohio University by far has the state's biggest drinking problem- 20 bars in two city blocks says it all. Then there's Palmerfest, Halloween, Mill Fest, Four Fest, High Fest, Oaktober Fest, Arktober Fest, etc., etc., etc.

In terms of general undergraduate admissions (not always the best way to measure a school since programs vary widely), Ohio State is toughest on standardized test scores. I think the average now is around a 26 ACT for general admission, which is close to 90th percentile nationwide. However, 26 ACT is also the average at OU's Tcom school, and would get you a nice rejection letter from the School of Journalism or Film. It all depends on what you want to major in.

Ohio State's medical school has clearly eclisped the other public schools in the state- nothing much to say about that other than they're good.

Despite their age and prowess, OU and Miami both are lacking in graduate programs. At Ohio, the only highly-ranked grad schools are in Film and Communications. Last year, OU's School of Engineering was the center of one of the largest plagiarism scandals in history.

Pillod being the only one who believes that Ohio doesn't run on a one-flagship system, nicely colored in scarlet and gray. Pillod...you think many folks in Athens, Ohio, would agree with your assessment...or Columbus for that matter? How about Cleveland? Do they look at far off Miami as a flagship.

[edsg25]

Great discussion.

BTW, in one-flagship states, can another school eventually break the barrier and have equal flagship status?

such as

UIC or Northern Illinois in relationship to UIUC?

Louisville in relationship with Kentucky?

Temple and Pitt in relationship with Penn St?

Mo St in relationship with Mizzou?

Ark St in relationsip to Arkansas?

Or are they destined to be more like the U of M-Twin Cities, one flagship forever?????

And will Texas Tech ever reach UT and TAMU status in Texas?

[NovaWolverine]

Berkeley is the flagship, but it's not really blowing UCLA and UCSD out of the water. I think UT-Austin is another that is the big dog in a state with a system like California and Wisconsin.

[bay_area]

The University of California has one flagship and its Berkeley.

Technically,
the other schools are branches of Berkeley but that's meaningless since the schools are completely autonomous aside from the governing board of the entire UC System which is located in Downtown Oakland.

But as of late, the UC Chancellor stated in 1998 on this issue that:

"This is not an easy topic to talk about for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that those of us in "systems" of higher education are frequently actively discouraged from using the term "flagship" to refer to our campuses because it is seen as hurtful to the self-esteem of colleagues at other institutions in our systems. The use of the term is seen by some as elitist and boastful. It is viewed by many, in the context of the politics of higher education, as "politically incorrect.""

- Robert Berdahl, Chancellor, University of California

[krudmonk]

Cal remains the flagship only in regards to their use of the name "California."

[bobbycuzin]

yeah but UCLA and UCSD are both well-recognized and could easily compete with the flagship schools from other states

[krudmonk]

Originally Posted by bobbycuzin

yeah but UCLA and UCSD are both well-recognized and could easily compete with the flagship schools from other states

That's my point. Cal is just a name. The Berkeley campus isn't superior in any way.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by bay_area

The University of California has one flagship and its Berkeley.

Technically,
the other schools are branches of Berkeley but that's meaningless since the schools are completely autonomous aside from the governing board of the entire UC System which is located in Downtown Oakland.

But as of late, the UC Chancellor stated in 1998 on this issue that:

"This is not an easy topic to talk about for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that those of us in "systems" of higher education are frequently actively discouraged from using the term "flagship" to refer to our campuses because it is seen as hurtful to the self-esteem of colleagues at other institutions in our systems. The use of the term is seen by some as elitist and boastful. It is viewed by many, in the context of the politics of higher education, as "politically incorrect.""

- Robert Berdahl, Chancellor, University of California

bay, I do know that Cal got to call itself "the University of California" long after places like UCLA and other older branches joined the system. I also believe there was a period of time when UCD was just the agricultural divison of Berkeley and UCSF was just UC's med center. Do you have any idea what year the name switch from the Univ of California to the Univ of California, Berkeley, took place?

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by krudmonk

Cal remains the flagship only in regards to their use of the name "California."

i agree, although the following I believe is also true:

• the university has unrestricted use of the name "Cal"

• "California" and "University of California" can only be used by the university's athletic teams. You can speak of the two Pac Ten members as California and UCLA, but academically (while there is a Cal) there is no California or University of California.

There is some dispute about whether California has one or more than one flagship. Dispute aside, the academic reputation and the full quality of the institutions (plus their national and international renoun) make Cal and UCLA instituions on the same paar with neither in the shaddow of the other. UCLA can not be dismissed as some sort of second fiddle to Cal.

Also, I still believe that the University of California is more of a equalitarian system than what exists in other such university systems. Madison dominates UW. Austin dominates UT. Chapel Hill dominates UNC. Boulder dominates CU. Tuscalousa dominates UA. Ann Arbor dominates U-M. College Park dominates UMd. And on and on.

UC is different. UC was designed to have a place in California's three level hierachy of UC/CSU/JUCO. And it does. Cal and UCLA asside, what other system can produce the likes of UCSD, UCSB, UCD, UCI, etc. These are far greater institutions and come in larger numbers than you will find in other such university systems.

[max_cool]

The only real difference between Arizona State and Univ of Arizona is that UofA gets to have a medical school, while the Arizona Board of Regents has repeatedly denied Arizona States request to create a medical school.

Academically, UofA has a better reputation, but there is nothing substantially different between the two schools. They both have great Engineering programs, they both have great Business Schools (ASU's is better though), their liberal arts programs are pretty much equal (the good and the bad wash out). Heck even their Law Schools are pretty even, UA = 44 / ASU = 51.

[Tauricorn]

UK & Louisville. UK started out as a land grant institution, and I believe Louisville began as a institution for the residents of that city. UK is still the states flagship institution but both are pretty much national universities, and I believe they pretty much offer the some curriculum.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by max_cool

The only real difference between Arizona State and Univ of Arizona is that UofA gets to have a medical school, while the Arizona Board of Regents has repeatedly denied Arizona States request to create a medical school.

Academically, UofA has a better reputation, but there is nothing substantially different between the two schools. They both have great Engineering programs, they both have great Business Schools (ASU's is better though), their liberal arts programs are pretty much equal (the good and the bad wash out). Heck even their Law Schools are pretty even, UA = 44 / ASU = 51.

max, didn't ASU begin as some sort of a normal school for teacher education and did not have university status? I mean, the original intention was not to make ASU on equal status with UA...that came much later, right?