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Old February 7th, 2008, 05:41 AM   #41
Skybean
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Very nice update from current in the Toronto forums

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Photos taken February 5, looking south west towards Bay and Yorkville Ave. The presentation centre is gone.

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The presentation centre is now resting on steel beams at its new site on the north side of Scollard St.
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Looking northeast at the site from Bay and Yorkville Ave with Lotus under construction in the background.
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Old February 8th, 2008, 03:34 AM   #42
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very classy. hope the snow doesn't cause too much delay.
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Old May 6th, 2008, 03:24 AM   #43
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Finally! Looks like they've started to dig.

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There is some activity...

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Old May 6th, 2008, 05:24 AM   #44
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This project is dope and I hope they use quality materials esp. @ street level. Very timeless design with unique setbacks. The towers would look even more stunning at night and they will truly bookend T.O's skyline despite 1 Bloor being nearby.
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Old May 6th, 2008, 06:00 AM   #45
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It would be a shock if this building wasn't of the very highest of quality. Not only is Four Season's the world's premier luxury hotel brand, but this company was founded, and continues to be headquartered in Toronto. You would expect this to be their flagship property.
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Old May 6th, 2008, 04:00 PM   #46
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i remember reading that the base will be limestone.
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Old May 7th, 2008, 02:47 AM   #47
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Yessir! Although the renderings suggest otherwise that's definetly what they'll use. I mean, you have to make up for not giving Toronto (where Four Seasons was founded) your tallest tower!
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Old May 7th, 2008, 03:24 AM   #48
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Great design, but truthfully, without bias, I would say that New York's proposed Four Seasons at 99 Church Street is far superior.
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Old May 7th, 2008, 06:28 AM   #49
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Well, that's terrible news for this company if your assessment is correct. It would be a huge blunder for Four Seasons to offer inconsistency from one city to another. It is a fatal error for a brand, especially a high end brand. The value of the brand stems partly from an experience or product being the same whether you are in Montreal or in Moscow. For a company like this, it's not just that the high service must be consistent, but the opulence and beauty of the facility must be consistent too.

What features do you like better about the New York proposal? I wasn't aware of 99 Church Street at all. Do you have a link? It would be interesting to compare.

There are quite a few Four Seasons going up around the world. The Kuala Lumpur Four Seasons being constructed seem to be the tallest that I've come across. It was a surprise that they would get a larger complex than Toronto. Hopefully, ours is sexier. I'm just glad for this firm and for Toronto that new facilities are being built. The old Four Seasons has got to be the most dowdy bland and ordinary hotel property in their entire portfolio.

Last edited by isaidso; May 7th, 2008 at 06:53 AM.
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Old May 7th, 2008, 11:38 PM   #50
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here is the NYC FS Hotel: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...ew+york+church

Also without bias, from the renderings, I prefer the Toronto one. But the NYC one could turn out very well...what's the cladding material, what stone? Cladding towers in stone is tricky nowadays, so I would be swayed towards the glass of the Toronto tower.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 01:19 AM   #51
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Thanks for the link. The render wasn't very detailed, so all I could gather was that it looked like a taller 'Uptown'. From what 'storms991' said about it being "far superior" I was expecting something gorgeous like MOMA. There wasn't much information regarding features, amenities, materials, layouts, etc. to ascertain the superiority of the New York proposal vis a vis the one under construction in Toronto.

Perhaps, it is superior, but judging from the outside, there seems to be little discrepancy in standards. Aesthetically, I do prefer the one in Toronto, but admittedly the pics of 99 Church that I saw didn't give one much to go on.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 02:26 AM   #52
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The location of 99 Church seems boring compared to how Four Seasons got the best location in Toronto IMO or if I was a buyer. Why not Midtown NYC like they chose Midtown T.O? Better design or not Lower Manhatten is dead after 10:00 pm
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Old May 8th, 2008, 04:37 AM   #53
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They are trying to change that. Like our CBD, people are beginning to move there, condos are going up, and it is evolving into a full service neighbourhood. Lower Manhattan used to be dead after 5pm, but not any more.

We're probably going to see the same transformation in our CBD. There was an article in The Star called "Living in a Clockwork Ghost Town" about changes that are happening in our CBD. 104,000 people work in this tightly packed census tract, but it is home to zero single family homes, and only 548 residents. The place is a ghost town after 5pm, but that will start to change. Within 10 years, studies show that the resident population will surge 20 fold to over 10,000. With that will come all the amenities that a community demand.

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/416326

Like Lower Manhattan, our CBD will become an actual neighbourhood where people work and live. It's a great sign that Four Seasons is building in Lower Manhattan for the same reasons why it's great that Trump, the Ritz, and Shangri-La are being built in our CBD. The result will be one more interesting neighbourhood where people might actually go to hang out. A greater number of vibrant full service neighbourhoods is better than fewer.

Not everyone will agree, but I find any urban area boring that is all one thing. All hospital/medical, all offices, all condo towers, etc. Bay/Charles is much more interesting with the Indigo store there. Otherwise, it would be nothing but condos. Yonge/Bloor is much more interesting because there are 2 office towers there, it's not just all retail. Likewise, the CBD will be much more interesting once all those residential towers get built. Mixed use is usually far more appealing.

Last edited by isaidso; May 8th, 2008 at 09:43 AM.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 07:39 AM   #54
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Good point although personally I think Bloor/Yorkville should remain as T.O's premier shopping/luxury hotel destination. Too much glamazoon in the CBD would give tourists a reason not to venture north of Dundas making the city seem much smaller. I'm just one of those ppl who likes enclaves.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 07:52 AM   #55
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The one in NYC was a bit of a disappointment to me.. I was expecting something pretty glam from the buildup, but it doesn't seem all that spectacular. It is tall.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 08:02 AM   #56
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Aw well... Toronto's already got a Stern I doubt he could pull of 99 Church in precast again hehehe. Hmm.. I'd prefer any larger Stern in Yorkville as opposed to biting my nails watching Uptown rise! Yikes!!
Don't worry NYC that thing will be a beauty!

Btw, Taller have you seen the 99 Church Thread or have a link? I'm curious because the rendering dosen't clearly show the base which is so significant.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 08:10 AM   #57
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Just the link from post #50. I'd like to see it in better detail, as it looks like it is lacking cohesion.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 09:52 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taller, Better View Post
The one in NYC was a bit of a disappointment to me.. I was expecting something pretty glam from the buildup, but it doesn't seem all that spectacular. It is tall.
I agree with you, but will wait for more details. It seemed a bit outlandish that he claimed the New York proposal to be "far superior". It's a better strategy to respectfully ask people to back up dubious statements like that with solid arguments rather than argue. 9 times out of 10, you don't hear from them again. Crafty, but effective!

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Good point although personally I think Bloor/Yorkville should remain as T.O's premier shopping/luxury hotel destination. Too much glamazoon in the CBD would give tourists a reason not to venture north of Dundas making the city seem much smaller. I'm just one of those ppl who likes enclaves.
I understand your concern, but it hasn't been the experience elsewhere. Malls suffer when other ones open near by because their offering is identical. Neighbourhoods in cities are infinitely more unique. Yorkville and the CBD will never canabalize each other in the same way that a new mall can effect a neighbouring mall. They are distinct neighbourhoods with different things to offer. People don't like frequenting the same few streets over and over again. People will explore even if they end up at the same coffee shop chain.

Having said that, it is simply the product of a growing city that duplication occurs. Look at Tokyo. They have many many great shopping districts. Toronto is big enough to support a few, and large enough that it demands a few.

Growth in retail elsewhere doesn't need to mean the decline of Yorkville as the premier shopping destination in Toronto. We already have many different shopping districts. I can go to the furniture district (King East), hipster district (Queen West), counter culture district (Kensington), Little Italy, Danforth, Little India, it goes on and on. These are all shopping districts. It's true that they offer unique shopping experiences, but where am I supposed to go if I get bored with Yorkville? Having choice is good. The CBD can develop its own niche, but franky, Toronto is growing big and rich enough to sustain some duplication at the high end.

Yorkville is in little danger of getting canabalized. The high end all want to be in Yorkville.

Last edited by isaidso; May 8th, 2008 at 10:30 AM.
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Old May 9th, 2008, 02:34 AM   #59
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I suppose we should be more concerned with this new high end CBD swallowing up Queen St. West hey?
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Old May 9th, 2008, 06:51 AM   #60
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If the CBD does evolve into a full fledged neighbourhood, it and Queen West will probably never cater to the same demographic. The CBD is going to cater to an older more conservative stuffy crowd than Queen Street simply because of the type of area it is.

The CBD is going to attract retail like Longo's, Home Hardware, Shopper's Drug Mart, Sobey's Express, Harry Rosen, Jones New York, Nine West, etc. Queen West has some of these elements, but is geared to a much younger, less wealthy, trendy consumer group. Likewise, the Eaton Centre attracts the 905 crowd, Yorkville caters to the super high end, and Yonge Street acts as a great connecting strip offering everything in between.

Toronto has the population to allow all of them to prosper. Over time, other areas will develop more retail. If it happens, it will happen due to demand. The analogy to shopping mall canabalization doesn't hold, because mall construction isn't usually growth of retail due to demand. When neighbourhoods add stores, it is because they are needed. That's not necessarily the case with a mall. You often open a mall to replace supply that already exists. The mall usually prospers, and other stores near by die. Neighbourhood retail growth doesn't have destructive results like that. It is an addition to what already exists because of population increase or a substantial increase in disposable income.

Last edited by isaidso; May 9th, 2008 at 07:03 AM.
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