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Old May 27th, 2014, 06:56 PM   #3041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by čarli View Post
So 1 km would cost over 56 million €? I'm not so sure about that
even more, length is 4,25km.

http://ndsas.sk/aktuality-zacina-vys...a/44372s48485c

2,2km tunnel + 2km viaducts
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Old May 28th, 2014, 03:41 AM   #3042
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Beautiful graphics on that video.

I was surprised to see the tunnel emergency bays with 90-degree walls at the far end. I would think that after that horrendous accident (I think it was in Switzerland) where all those children died when their bus ran into a wall like that, that they would start designing these walls with tapers to prevent that from happening again.
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Old May 28th, 2014, 10:27 AM   #3043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by čarli View Post
So 1 km would cost over 56 million €? I'm not so sure about that
Quote:
Originally Posted by i15 View Post
even more, length is 4,25km.
2,2km tunnel + 2km viaducts
Exactly, it's sad, but that's Slovakistan...
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Old May 28th, 2014, 11:23 AM   #3044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natomasken View Post
I was surprised to see the tunnel emergency bays with 90-degree walls at the far end. I would think that after that horrendous accident (I think it was in Switzerland) where all those children died when their bus ran into a wall like that, that they would start designing these walls with tapers to prevent that from happening again.
That were my thoughts too. This is an obvious design flaw implemented in tunnels all over Europe for decades. In normal non-tunnel circumstances, an object so close to the driving lanes would have to be fended off with a crash barrier.

About the cost; if you take notice of the design, you can see the entire project is either on a viaduct or in a tunnel. The cost doesn't strike me as extraordinary.
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Old May 28th, 2014, 11:28 AM   #3045
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Probably they will ad some New Jersey barriers or some crash pads. This is still just a render, not a final project in every detail. Building facing tunnel walls other than 90-degree is very difficult if not impossible. I didn't see even one such wall until now.
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Old May 28th, 2014, 07:16 PM   #3046
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visualisation doesn't have to be 100% accurate, it doesn't mean motorway will be exactly as shown
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Old May 31st, 2014, 11:44 AM   #3047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
About the cost; if you take notice of the design, you can see the entire project is either on a viaduct or in a tunnel. The cost doesn't strike me as extraordinary.
The price is outrageous if you consider there was competition in 2009 which was won by Skanska with 163,4 mil. € offer. This competition was cancelled (illegally as the court decided later) and the new competition in 2013 was again won by Skanska with 190 mil. € offer. Skanska was however excluded and the next offer by Eurovia SK, Hochtief CZ and SMS (both Eurovia and Hochtief are well known for corruption) for 255 mil. € was accepted.

It means this section was delayed for 5 years purposely to increase price by 91,6 mil. € which is 56 % increase of the original price. This short (and typical) story explains the whole process of developing motorway network in Slovakia, especially why this process is so slow and expensive.
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Old May 31st, 2014, 12:42 PM   #3048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwert View Post

The price is outrageous if you consider there was competition in 2009 which was won by Skanska with 163,4 mil. € offer. This competition was cancelled (illegally as the court decided later) and the new competition in 2013 was again won by Skanska with 190 mil. € offer. Skanska was however excluded and the next offer by Eurovia SK, Hochtief CZ and SMS (both Eurovia and Hochtief are well known for corruption) for 255 mil. € was accepted.

It means this section was delayed for 5 years purposely to increase price by 91,6 mil. € which is 56 % increase of the original price. This short (and typical) story explains the whole process of developing motorway network in Slovakia, especially why this process is so slow and expensive.
Is this really true?! Maybe Skanska made some mistake or fault in its offer? Sorry for my honest, but it sounds like story from 3rd world country...
For cca. 90 mil. € you could built D3 from Svirovac to Cadca (existed tunnel) an R5 to Czech Rep. border at last.
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Old May 31st, 2014, 01:05 PM   #3049
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Why was Skanska's offer excluded? How many other consortia made offers in this tender?
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Old May 31st, 2014, 02:59 PM   #3050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRC_100 View Post
Sorry for my honest, but it sounds like story from 3rd world country...
3rd world countries like Germany?

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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
The total costs are 77 million € now. The 6.5km Baden-Württemberg section costs 55 million € (2012: 50 million €; 2007: 37 million €) and the 2.0km Bavarian section costs 22 million € (December 2011: ~12 million €).
It's only the estimatation by the authority, the project is not yet tendered.
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Old May 31st, 2014, 05:33 PM   #3051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwert View Post
The price is outrageous if you consider there was competition in 2009 which was won by Skanska with 163,4 mil. € offer.

(...)

It means this section was delayed for 5 years purposely to increase price by 91,6 mil. € which is 56 % increase of the original price.
But how realistic was the initial offer? We've seen it elsewhere before, companies making ridiculous low offers to win the tender and then can't deliver and demand more money. That approach doesn't work either.
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Old May 31st, 2014, 09:16 PM   #3052
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If the companies file too low offers, they typically go bankrupt. This is not the case of Skanska ...
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Old May 31st, 2014, 10:37 PM   #3053
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Originally Posted by bewu1 View Post
If the companies file too low offers, they typically go bankrupt. This is not the case of Skanska ...
I don't know how it goes in Slovakia, but in Hungary if a company offers e.g. 100bn forint and then later on asks for another 50bn, the state will pay it. Always.
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Old June 1st, 2014, 10:09 AM   #3054
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Quote:
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I don't know how it goes in Slovakia, but in Hungary if a company offers e.g. 100bn forint and then later on asks for another 50bn, the state will pay it. Always.
Yes, Poland was very much the exception in this case for not being bullied by contractors.
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Old June 1st, 2014, 12:56 PM   #3055
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some photos of SK motorways from my recent trip

D2


D1








little Millau




road 11


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Old June 1st, 2014, 02:15 PM   #3056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
I don't know how it goes in Slovakia, but in Hungary if a company offers e.g. 100bn forint and then later on asks for another 50bn, the state will pay it. Always.
In Poland, is some cases, the state also pays for additional works. It may be the case for example if the tender's offer were prepared based on the government's delivered geological documentation which is faulty. Poland may be quite easy country to built a motorway or an expressway, since there is not much tunnelling nor bridging. However, the subsoil may be very difficult due to some marshy on unstable subsoil.
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Old June 1st, 2014, 03:14 PM   #3057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRC_100 View Post
Is this really true?! Maybe Skanska made some mistake or fault in its offer? Sorry for my honest, but it sounds like story from 3rd world country...
For cca. 90 mil. € you could built D3 from Svirovac to Cadca (existed tunnel) an R5 to Czech Rep. border at last.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
But how realistic was the initial offer? We've seen it elsewhere before, companies making ridiculous low offers to win the tender and then can't deliver and demand more money. That approach doesn't work either.
Exactly, for this money we would be able to build other important motorways. Skanska didn't make a mistake, they explained the price to the NDS and they had no objections against Skanska's explanation, the price was realistic. It's Skanska, not some offshore company from Cyprus.

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Originally Posted by toonczyk View Post
Why was Skanska's offer excluded? How many other consortia made offers in this tender?
It was excluded because Skanska took part in cartel agreement with Strabag and Doprastav concerning competition in 2005 for a section of D1. It took only 9 years to decide if there was a cartel and the decision came in right time to exclude Skanska from this (and other) competitions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
I don't know how it goes in Slovakia, but in Hungary if a company offers e.g. 100bn forint and then later on asks for another 50bn, the state will pay it. Always.
It was common practice over here as well, but it doesn't happen that much in the last years. It's partially because present government allows construction companies to win "competitions" with high prices in the beginning, so there's no need for additional payment and partly because many new competition use so called Yellow FIDIC which makes additional payments only hardly possible, because it's the construction company itself who creates project for the motorway.

Last edited by Qwert; June 1st, 2014 at 03:22 PM.
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Old June 1st, 2014, 03:20 PM   #3058
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D1 bypas of Martin (Dubná Skala - Turany)

Aerial photos by Ali18.

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D1 pri Dubnej skale (20.5.2014):










Od Dubnej Skaly po Sučany:
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Moja posledná fotka oblasti pri Dubnej skale:
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Old June 1st, 2014, 08:13 PM   #3059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwert View Post
The price is outrageous if you consider there was competition in 2009 which was won by Skanska with 163,4 mil. € offer. This competition was cancelled (illegally as the court decided later) and the new competition in 2013 was again won by Skanska with 190 mil. € offer.
First tender was cancelled after government change and nobody shed a tear. It doesn't matter if the price is 163 or 255 million, it's still unreliable
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Old June 1st, 2014, 08:27 PM   #3060
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A problem with the tendering process is the fact that it's very hard to reject an offer that appears to be too low. You need to have very good arguments to make such a case stick in court.

We've seen in the past that low tenders were rejected, appealed to in court, they got the job, but then couldn't deliver. That only slows the process down.
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