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Old January 8th, 2010, 11:34 AM   #1121
seem
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Originally Posted by rarse View Post
Good. Because the ones which are "new" are . Anyway why haven't they made signs with the totally new font on D1 (2x3) Bratislava - Trnava? That is waste of money.
Because TERN is not our font already. We had "invent" our new font earlier than "EU" TERN.


to compare_

IMO, I like new "european" font TERN

Tern Regular


Tern Narrow


If you want know more_
http://www.commarts.com/Columns.aspx...196&pageid=960
http://www.insafety-eu.org/documents...erable_5.1.pdf
http://www.iiid.net/PDFs/InSafetyD2-3_IIID.pdf

and our new font



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Old January 8th, 2010, 12:44 PM   #1122
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Originally Posted by seem View Post
IMO, I like new "european" font TERN

Tern Regular
AWESOME!!!!
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Old January 8th, 2010, 04:37 PM   #1123
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Originally Posted by pijanec View Post
What is the main reason Slovakia is so lacking behind other EU countries regarding modern road construction?
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Originally Posted by (HUN)RoGeR View Post
Is there any traffic in this section?
On the Hungarian section the traffic volume is almost zero, and Slovakia builds a full-profile highway on the other side? Why?
The answers to these two questions are related. Slovakia's progress is very slow for multiple reasons (ranging from politics/nationalism to "building of new state" and pure corruption). One prototypical reason is that we construct very expensive complicated highways in difficult terrain (very often way over reasonable needs and requirements, using stricter norms than in most other countries), which combined with the fact that the planning and preparation is very slow (because of legislative and other reasons) + constant lack of funding, results in very slow expensive construction. Moreover, what is done is mainly easy sections of the highways, an the complicated sections (e.g., Levoca, ?Visnove?, Presov) haven't even started yet, so a real completion of even D1 (BA-KE) will take at least another 10 years, reaching Michalovce+UA in another 20.

The R4 KE-Milhost expressway is a prototypical example of this. It took them good 15 years to get to the point of being ready to construct the excessive 4-lane expressway that's not really needed. If the approach was instead to construct bypasses of villages/towns/critical points on this expressway and many other expressways, the overall situation would have been much much better on our highway network as a whole. But, with this style of construction people end up accepting that it's good that the R4 KE-Milhost will be built in 4 lanes, because:
- it's clear that if they built only 2 lanes, it would take another 40 years to build the other two lanes
- even with 4 lanes it's extremely cheap compared to almost any other highway sections in Slovakia (in particular the ones near Povazska Bystrica or Zilina)
- it is the case that this road connects eastern Slovakia to the European highway network via Hungary (in particular because the Slovak D1 and R1+R2 aren't going to be finished for at least another 10 years).
- Foreign investors (and all people interested in economic development of Eastern Slovakia) see this road as crucial. As an example, even though many Bratislava-Zilina "true" Slovaks try to ignore it, all the industrial development that's been happening in Eastern Slovakia since the wall came down concentrated to the south and southwest of Kosice (Kechnec Industrial Park, US Steel, Valeo....), and is completely dependent on the Hungarian highways, while not needing the Slovak D1 at all (with the perspective of using the Slovak R1+R2 when they are finished).

So, as I said, a lot of complicated issues mixed together result in where we are now.

PS: The map Qwert posted here is as fictive as the map of "finished" highway sections on the toll-road map that (HUN)RoGeR posted earlier. Specifically, for almost all the sections of the northern D1 shown in green, the construction has officially started (as part of PPP1). But, actually, the government does not have funding for them yet. They need to secure a 3mld EUR loan (which is funny because this is officially a PPP project, but the construction companies couldn't get the funding; so now they are trying to turn it into a government-secured PPP project. But, despite the government guaranties, the EIB is now hesitant to provide 1mldEUR loan, which is a key for commercial banks to provide the rest). So, the "construction" here actually means that they just remove trees and do some soil removal etc, in hope that they'll get the funding.

On the other hand, on Qwert's map, a short section of D1 to the west of Presov is shown in green (i.e., under construction) even though in reality it's actually finished. But, for a combination of legal and political reasons it is not opened and, most likely, it's not going to be opened until just before the elections :-)
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Old January 8th, 2010, 04:52 PM   #1124
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That is really really long time IMO. So Bratislava will have to take the ''rush hour'' crowded traffic on D2 until 2017.
Main problem of Bratislava isn't D2. Actually since tunnel Sitina (the last section of D2) was built traffic flow is quite good there. The main problem is overcrowded D1. Trnava - Bratislava is temporary upgraded on 2x3 and in few years it will be proper 2x3 motorway, but D1 within Bratislava is big bottleneck where traffic is much higher than between Bratislava and Trnava, but it would be very difficult and expensive tu upgrade it on 2x3 (not to mention in few years rather 2x4 would be necessary). Prioritising of the southern section is logical. On the other hand together with southern (blue) section there should be built also connection between D1 and II/502 which is part of the northern section.

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Good. Because the ones which are "new" are . Anyway why haven't they made signs with the totally new font on D1 (2x3) Bratislava - Trnava? That is waste of money.
It was necessary because old signs between Bratislava and Trnava were designed for 2x2 motorway and now it's 2x3. Tern isn't already approved. There is more sections with new signange without Tern. If I remember it correctly: D1 Mengusovce - Jánovce (but only direction to Košice), R1 Žarnovica - Lehôtka pod Brehmi, R3 bypass of Trstená, first part and few more will probably get it as well.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 05:30 PM   #1125
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DrX, you are either stupid or a liar, probably both.

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Originally Posted by DrX View Post
The answers to these two questions are related. Slovakia's progress is very slow for multiple reasons (ranging from politics/nationalism to "building of new state" and pure corruption). One prototypical reason is that we construct very expensive complicated highways in difficult terrain (very often way over reasonable needs and requirements, using stricter norms than in most other countries), which combined with the fact that the planning and preparation is very slow (because of legislative and other reasons) + constant lack of funding, results in very slow expensive construction. Moreover, what is done is mainly easy sections of the highways, an the complicated sections (e.g., Levoca, ?Visnove?, Presov) haven't even started yet, so a real completion of even D1 (BA-KE) will take at least another 10 years, reaching Michalovce+UA in another 20.
Yes, we should built only cheap sections ignoring real traffic needs because it will make our statistics about motorway/expressway length look better.

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Originally Posted by DrX View Post
The R4 KE-Milhost expressway is a prototypical example of this. It took them good 15 years to get to the point of being ready to construct the excessive 4-lane expressway that's not really needed. If the approach was instead to construct bypasses of villages/towns/critical points on this expressway and many other expressways, the overall situation would have been much much better on our highway network as a whole. But, with this style of construction people end up accepting that it's good that the R4 KE-Milhost will be built in 4 lanes, because:
- it's clear that if they built only 2 lanes, it would take another 40 years to build the other two lanes
- even with 4 lanes it's extremely cheap compared to almost any other highway sections in Slovakia (in particular the ones near Povazska Bystrica or Zilina)
- it is the case that this road connects eastern Slovakia to the European highway network via Hungary (in particular because the Slovak D1 and R1+R2 aren't going to be finished for at least another 10 years).
- Foreign investors (and all people interested in economic development of Eastern Slovakia) see this road as crucial. As an example, even though many Bratislava-Zilina "true" Slovaks try to ignore it, all the industrial development that's been happening in Eastern Slovakia since the wall came down concentrated to the south and southwest of Kosice (Kechnec Industrial Park, US Steel, Valeo....), and is completely dependent on the Hungarian highways, while not needing the Slovak D1 at all (with the perspective of using the Slovak R1+R2 when they are finished).

So, as I said, a lot of complicated issues mixed together result in where we are now.
Although I agree 2x2 R4 is for now useless (unlike some people may think R4 won't bring any significant improvement to the connection of Eastern Slovakia with European motorway network), basically you are saying Slovakia shouldn't built motorways and expressways, but just some bypasses and improvements on national roads and I disagree with this.

Sorry, but U.S. Steel is an investment or development which came after the fall of the wall? If you don't remember U.S. Steel Košice is just renamed VSŽ Košice and this plant was founded in 1959. For this factory as well as for car suppliers in Kechnec industrial park D1 is quite usefull, you know, car suppliers supply car manufacturers and overwhelming majority of these manufacturers as well as companies connected to them are located along D1.

BTW, Považská Bystrica is indeed expensive, but still what is being built is the cheapest variant possible.

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Originally Posted by DrX View Post
PS: The map Qwert posted here is as fictive as the map of "finished" highway sections on the toll-road map that (HUN)RoGeR posted earlier. Specifically, for almost all the sections of the northern D1 shown in green, the construction has officially started (as part of PPP1). But, actually, the government does not have funding for them yet. They need to secure a 3mld EUR loan (which is funny because this is officially a PPP project, but the construction companies couldn't get the funding; so now they are trying to turn it into a government-secured PPP project. But, despite the government guaranties, the EIB is now hesitant to provide 1mldEUR loan, which is a key for commercial banks to provide the rest). So, the "construction" here actually means that they just remove trees and do some soil removal etc, in hope that they'll get the funding.
On the other hand, on Qwert's map, a short section of D1 to the west of Presov is shown in green (i.e., under construction) even though in reality it's actually finished. But, for a combination of legal and political reasons it is not opened and, most likely, it's not going to be opened until just before the elections :-)
Maybe you don't understand, but look at the map again. "Diaľnice v prevádzke" means motorways in operation. "Diaľnice a rýchlostné cesty vo výstavbe" means motorways and expressways under construction. D1 Svinia - Prešov West, D3 Skalité - PL, R4 bypass of Svidník are all basically finished (although there are still some works to be done), but they are not in operation thus they are marked green. On the other hand e.g. R1 Žarnovica - Lehôtka pod Brehmi and first part of R3 bypass of Trstená are still U/C, but they are also in operation, thus they are marked orange. PPP sections on the northern and eastern D1 are U/C. You can actually see works going on, just look at some galleries on www.dialnice.info. Yes, PPP contractor still doesn't have definitive approval from the banks, but this doesn't change anything on the fact works have already started.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 06:00 PM   #1126
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The answers to these two questions are related. Slovakia's progress is very slow for multiple reasons (ranging from politics/nationalism to "building of new state" and pure corruption).
That shouldn't be the case. For example, Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary etc. all became independent approximately the same time as Slovakia and yet they all have amazing motorway network.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 11:13 PM   #1127
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That shouldn't be the case. For example, Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary etc. all became independent approximately the same time as Slovakia and yet they all have amazing motorway network.
Slovakia currently has about 522 km of motorways and 2x2 expressways and about 43 km of 2x1 expressways. That's more or less comparable to Czech Republic and Hungary. Czech Republic has more than 1,100 km of motorways/expressays and in Hungary it's I guess similar. Of course you have to take into account those countries have almost two times bigger population than Slovakia. But, on the map it might look like Slovakia has much smaller density of network, because our territory isn't two times smaller than theirs. When compared to Poland Slovakia has probably more motorways/expressways per capita.

On the other hand, countries like Slovenia and Croatia, which both have smaller population than Slovakia have really impressive network and Slovakia has a lot to catch up. Croatia probably in this case profits from not being in the EU and not having euro so it can borrow more money for construction. Slovenia is simply much smaller and much richer so it's obvious they have better network.

Of course, considering Slovak economic level (it's the third richest ex-communist state after Slovenia and Czech Republic) our network should be denser. Lack of motorways/expressways have several reasons, incompetent governments, corruption and thus overpriced construction (the best example is tunnel Branisko) and so on. Now it seems construction is finally accelerating, currently there's U/C about 180 km of motorways/expressways (19 km as 2x1) and more sections should be started this year.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 11:22 PM   #1128
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Due to the mountainous areas, and the consequently high construction cost, the purchasing power of the Slovakian road budget is much lower than the Polish or Hungarian road budget. You can build less with the same budget.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 11:31 PM   #1129
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Due to the mountainous areas, and the consequently high construction cost, the purchasing power of the Slovakian road budget is much lower than the Polish or Hungarian road budget. You can build less with the same budget.
That's true. It means we have to increase our road budget. Only payments for PPP projects will be higher than entire our current road budget.
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Old January 8th, 2010, 11:36 PM   #1130
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It can mean a significant difference in road construction speed.

For instance, the average pricetag of a Spanish Autovía is € 6 million per kilometer. But I've seen projects as low as 2 or 3 million per kilometer. Similar motorways in the Netherlands are quickly over 15 - 20 million per kilometer. One is even priced at 100 million per kilometer.
Aside from local big "arts" of course, like major bridges or tunnels. That always drive up the price (like the Golden Gate Bridge or the Gotthard Tunnel), but you should compare the average price, not of individual sections of 2 km.
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Old January 9th, 2010, 02:42 PM   #1131
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Due to the mountainous areas, and the consequently high construction cost, the purchasing power of the Slovakian road budget is much lower than the Polish or Hungarian road budget. You can build less with the same budget.
And this is pretty much the essence of the whole problem in SLovakia. The point is that the construction is expensive because of its difficult terrain in the north, not in the south. However, Slovakia set as a priority to construct northern D1 BA-ZA-Poprad-Presov-Kosice-(..Michalovce-Ukraine) in the difficult northern terrain in which it cannot afford to finish it in another 10 years (despite the fact that it effectively eats up all available resources). At the same time, there is a cheap southern connection R1+R2 (BA-Zvolen-Kosice-Presov +Mi-UA) which could have been finished 10 years ago if only 30% of the Slovak highways budget went into this construction. But, the current (as well as the previous Meciar+Slota) government's priorities were to put all the money into the north-western highway construction. The only government that was trying to eliminate this disparity was Dzurinda's government (in power till 2006) which included representatives of the hungarian minority and which defined a rule that the highway funding should be split 60% to the north 40% to the south. But, the new government with Meciar and Slota quickly abandoned any such rule. Instead, they defined the priorities to be D1 BA-ZA-KE-UA and R1 BA-BB, effectively stopping any investment into any highway that is within 50km of the hungarian border :-).

As a result, in 2010 (or 2011) the highway will reach Zilina (D1) and Banska Bystrica (R1), but we still have LOTS AND LOTS to do to actually cross the northern mountains and get to the east. So the whole East of Slovakia has to wait - and use hungarian higways.

This BA-Zilina-biased governmental policy of completely blocking any funding to the south results in regions like Rimavska Sobota / Lucenec / Roznava having 30+% unemployment, despite the fact that the southern highway would go through these counties and (in addition to connecting east and west of slovakia) it would also serve to attract foreign investment into these regions.

So, the other difference between Slovakia and eg Hungary or the Czech republic is that, even if the overall density is not that much lower, almost all the highways are concentrated in the west/north, with no construction in the the east/south, resulting in large regional differences.

Last edited by DrX; January 9th, 2010 at 02:49 PM.
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Old January 9th, 2010, 03:54 PM   #1132
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As a result, in 2010 (or 2011) the highway will reach Zilina (D1) and Banska Bystrica (R1), but we still have LOTS AND LOTS to do to actually cross the northern mountains and get to the east. So the whole East of Slovakia has to wait - and use hungarian higways.

This BA-Zilina-biased governmental policy of completely blocking any funding to the south results in regions like Rimavska Sobota / Lucenec / Roznava having 30+% unemployment, despite the fact that the southern highway would go through these counties and (in addition to connecting east and west of slovakia) it would also serve to attract foreign investment into these regions.
I `ll be glad if I `ll see complete D1 and R1+R2.

R1 will be soon, at the end of 2011 and D1 -BA-KE is under construction, I mean many kilometers of R2 will be open before elections in 2014 (ZV-LC is realy bad )

btw, for foreins, R2 is longest expressway in Slovakia with length 365 km, just 49.2 km is in use
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Old January 9th, 2010, 03:58 PM   #1133
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good point Slovakia has biggest regional differences within EU borders - due ill set infrastructure construction in past
priorities was set and you wont em change here btw... for south(regions Rimavska Sobota / Lucenec / Roznava) and central ( region Brezno)of the Slovakia no highway or motorway is necessary much better will serve bypasses of all town and villages there
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Old January 9th, 2010, 04:49 PM   #1134
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And, to complete the comparison of the highway density in Slovakia vs the surrounding countries, here is an analysis by the UniCredit bank, which says that even if/when/after the PPP projects are finished, the highway network density in Slovakia will be inferior. Specifically, the Czech network will be 19% denser, the Hungarian one will be 43% denser, Austria 120% denser and Germany 220% denser.

So, no way is our network now comparable to the Czech or Hungarian one ;-)

Last edited by DrX; January 9th, 2010 at 05:38 PM.
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Old January 9th, 2010, 07:25 PM   #1135
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And this is pretty much the essence of the whole problem in SLovakia. The point is that the construction is expensive because of its difficult terrain in the north, not in the south. However, Slovakia set as a priority to construct northern D1 BA-ZA-Poprad-Presov-Kosice-(..Michalovce-Ukraine) in the difficult northern terrain in which it cannot afford to finish it in another 10 years (despite the fact that it effectively eats up all available resources). At the same time, there is a cheap southern connection R1+R2 (BA-Zvolen-Kosice-Presov +Mi-UA) which could have been finished 10 years ago if only 30% of the Slovak highways budget went into this construction. But, the current (as well as the previous Meciar+Slota) government's priorities were to put all the money into the north-western highway construction. The only government that was trying to eliminate this disparity was Dzurinda's government (in power till 2006) which included representatives of the hungarian minority and which defined a rule that the highway funding should be split 60% to the north 40% to the south. But, the new government with Meciar and Slota quickly abandoned any such rule. Instead, they defined the priorities to be D1 BA-ZA-KE-UA and R1 BA-BB, effectively stopping any investment into any highway that is within 50km of the hungarian border :-).

As a result, in 2010 (or 2011) the highway will reach Zilina (D1) and Banska Bystrica (R1), but we still have LOTS AND LOTS to do to actually cross the northern mountains and get to the east. So the whole East of Slovakia has to wait - and use hungarian higways.

This BA-Zilina-biased governmental policy of completely blocking any funding to the south results in regions like Rimavska Sobota / Lucenec / Roznava having 30+% unemployment, despite the fact that the southern highway would go through these counties and (in addition to connecting east and west of slovakia) it would also serve to attract foreign investment into these regions.

So, the other difference between Slovakia and eg Hungary or the Czech republic is that, even if the overall density is not that much lower, almost all the highways are concentrated in the west/north, with no construction in the the east/south, resulting in large regional differences.
Dzurinda's government started construction of impressive 24.5 km of R1 and 0 km of R2. Other already built sections of R1 were started by Mečiar's government or even by communists. Fico's government started construction of 64 km of R1 and 20 km of R2 (2x1) and only during his government real preparation of other R2 sections began. But, I understand, you ignore facts which doesn't fit into your conspirative theories.

BTW, check this map. It shows when capacity of Slovak national roads and expressways will be exceeded (motorways are excluded). Violet until 2005 (yes, that was 5 years ago), orange until 2010 (that's now), blue until 2015 and green after 2015:

Click for full image, it's quite big. Maybe it will show you what we should built.
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Old January 9th, 2010, 10:15 PM   #1136
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I'm not even going to bother with the whole of your nonsensical post. Let's just take the first sentence

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Dzurinda's government started construction of impressive 24.5 km of R1 and 0 km of R2.
and contrast it with the fact that Dzurinda started the construction of R2 bypass of Ozdany (details here), bypass of Figa (details here), and bypass of Tornala (details here), i.e., the only 3 sections of R2 (ZV-KE section) finished so far. Let me also point out that these sections, with combined length of about 25 km, had the same cost as maybe 2km of the northern D1 have, and they resulted in dramatic improvement of the KE-ZV-BA highway connection (saving at least 15 mins). Also note that the EU was happy to fund them (see, eg, here) as it would be also for the rest of this expressway if Slovakia only proposed to construct it (at the same time EU refuses to finance all the highways+railways near Zilina, in particular the Visnove tunnel, because of extreme costs and regional concentration of funding requested by Slovak government).
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Old January 9th, 2010, 10:56 PM   #1137
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I'm not even going to bother with the whole of your nonsensical post. Let's just take the first sentence

and contrast it with the fact that Dzurinda started the construction of R2 bypass of Ozdany (details here), bypass of Figa (details here), and bypass of Tornala (details here), i.e., the only 3 sections of R2 (ZV-KE section) finished so far. Let me also point out that these sections, with combined length of about 25 km, had the same cost as maybe 2km of the northern D1 have, and they resulted in dramatic improvement of the KE-ZV-BA highway connection (saving at least 15 mins). Also note that the EU was happy to fund them (see, eg, here) as it would be also for the rest of this expressway if Slovakia only proposed to construct it (at the same time EU refuses to finance all the highways+railways near Zilina, in particular the Visnove tunnel, because of extreme costs and regional concentration of funding requested by Slovak government).
I apologize. So it's Dzurinda 24.5 km of R1 and 16.7 km of 2x1 R2 and Fico 64 km of R1 and 3.3 km of 2x1 R2 (construction of the bypass of Figa started in October 2006 after the elections in 2006). Despite the fact Fico is moron he still wins. (Those R2 sections combined have no way 25 km, they have exactly 20.092 km, check www.ndsas.sk). But, how common in debate with you. Your reply is just reaction on one little mistake and you ignores clear facts you aren't able to deal with. Look at the map.
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Old January 9th, 2010, 11:40 PM   #1138
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I apologize. So it's Dzurinda 24.5 km of R1 and 16.7 km of 2x1 R2 and Fico 64 km of R1 and 3.3 km of 2x1 R2 (construction of the bypass of Figa started in October 2006 after the elections in 2006). Despite the fact Fico is moron he still wins. (Those R2 sections combined have no way 25 km, they have exactly 20.092 km, check www.ndsas.sk). But, how common in debate with you. Your reply is just reaction on one little mistake and you ignores clear facts you aren't able to deal with. Look at the map.
Even the 3.3km section of R2 was fully prepared by Dzurinda. The only thing Fico did with this section is that he did not stop it (as he did with Dzurinda's other projects). And, yes, I was wrong: it was 20km, not 25 :-).

As far as R1 goes, Fico started it which is great, and it is the only good move in the highway construction he did. But, even for that he managed to waste millions of euros, because all of the R1 sections were eligible for EU funding. But, he removed them from the EU funding and created another PPP project for them, thus making the construction some 16 times more expensive for the Slovak citizens than regular construction using EU funds would have been (PPP costs 4 times more than regular construction, at least 75% of which would have been covered by the EU). But that doesn't matter: the main goal was to let the lobbyists and construction companies connected to his party to earn enough money to support him.
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Old January 10th, 2010, 12:32 AM   #1139
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Originally Posted by DrX View Post
Even the 3.3km section of R2 was fully prepared by Dzurinda. The only thing Fico did with this section is that he did not stop it (as he did with Dzurinda's other projects). And, yes, I was wrong: it was 20km, not 25 :-).
Yes, and some Dzurinda's sections were prepared by Mečiar, some Mečiar's sections were prepared by communists, some communist sections were prepared by nazis, nazi sections were prepared by Baťa and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrX View Post
As far as R1 goes, Fico started it which is great, and it is the only good move in the highway construction he did. But, even for that he managed to waste millions of euros, because all of the R1 sections were eligible for EU funding. But, he removed them from the EU funding and created another PPP project for them, thus making the construction some 16 times more expensive for the Slovak citizens than regular construction using EU funds would have been (PPP costs 4 times more than regular construction, at least 75% of which would have been covered by the EU). But that doesn't matter: the main goal was to let the lobbyists and construction companies connected to his party to earn enough money to support him.
Ah... Money from EU funds which were supposed to be used on R1 can be used e.g. on R2 now
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Old January 11th, 2010, 07:32 PM   #1140
DrX
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Are you really so stupid? I know you aren't - you're just a lobbyist. But, for the rest of the readers a clarification regarding your last comment: For the same money as we are now going to spend to construct 50km of R1 via PPP, we could have constructed 50km of R1+150km of R2, basically solving the problem of the southern highway connection!!! And, that doesn't even count using the EU funds! I.e., using EU funding, we could now continue developing our highway network, eg, on the Kosice-Michalovce-UA stretch!!!!

But, as I wrote before, it's pretty clear to me that you Qwert are directly funded by either one of the construction companies, or one of the governmental parties. So, go back to defending the new TOLL system before the prime minister gets more manure dumped in front of his office in appreciation of this successful project! Well, I guess it's too late. Fico just held a press conference on which he acknowledged that that the TOLL SYSTEM was botched, and he partially delayed its implementation (on the 1st class roads) and introduced other modifications.

Last edited by DrX; January 11th, 2010 at 07:58 PM.
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