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Old January 25th, 2010, 09:36 PM   #1201
ChrisZwolle
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The reason is cars were very unsafe in the 1950's, knowledge about traffic safety was low, poor road designs, especially at night.

Traffic fatalities in the 1950's could be three times as high as they are now, with maybe only a 20th of today's motorization. That means traffic safety has increased 60-fold in those years.

For instance, Germany recorded already 5.867 traffic fatalities in 1929, then almost 20.000 in 1970 and 4.000 in 2009.
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Old January 26th, 2010, 10:51 AM   #1202
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Quote:
What do you want?
Quote:
BTW, please don't compare me to our PM
take off pink glasses, you both have it.

1) czechoslovakia had the best infrastructure in past (maybe yugoslavia was comparable) in eastbloc, and nowadays we are 3rd in V4. cz/hu will have in 2015 complete basic network with sufficient connections via I. class roads to all regions. we not - its unforgivable

2) you have false informations. there is direct correlation between PPP projects and toll - in act of parliament n. 664/2007. toll incomes from PPP roads are incomes of state budget and it must be used as a payment to concessionaire. so because of 150 (or 157) km roads and mainly tunnels in north (thank you for attention, my english is not perfect) Sk we (private cars) will probably pay pretty much fees on all M/Eways. our trucks ALREADY are paying higher fees as on larger network as in czech republic - its unforgivable.

3) in PL maybe, merely...

5) in prague is bypass partly in use, partly u/c and partly in prepare, bypass of budapest is major part in use, the old part is u/rec. we have in use 3 (!!) km which is only connection from AUT to motorway D2 and it´s don´t identified the road line - its unforgivable.

4) E75 is not compensation for north-south connection in Central Slovakia. and I don´t talk abou M/E way, but till 2015 we will barely have most of bypasses in orava, between zvolen and sahy and continual 3rd lane via donovaly mountain (like dargov).

Quote:
..... Should I continue? That bridge is old, but it works and traffic is fluent there.
it´s incurious, we talk about our problems. either is good connection between komarno and M1 or not. limitations of speed, limitations of weight, I guess 2x3 m wide lanes, road lane via centre of towns...we can talk about good connection as well as our success when the new bridge will be in use.
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Old January 26th, 2010, 12:56 PM   #1203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The reason is cars were very unsafe in the 1950's, knowledge about traffic safety was low, poor road designs, especially at night....
Ok, I know that, but I wanted to ask: what's the reason of the sudden drop in the last 1-2 years?

in hungary it dropped 40% in the last 2 years...
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Old January 26th, 2010, 01:15 PM   #1204
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I like that bridge although those arches are just decoration without practical use.

I love "proffesionals" who write on this forum. These arches are not only a decoration, they are structural members and they do have practical use.
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Old January 26th, 2010, 01:37 PM   #1205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
take off pink glasses...
One more time. Answer this question from my previous post otherwise it doesn't have sense to continue in this discussion.: It's easy to criticise, but what solution do you offer?

Then I will write a response on your previous post. BTW, you are partially right only in point 2.

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Originally Posted by msz2 View Post
I like that bridge although those arches are just decoration without practical use.

I love "proffesionals" who write on this forum. These arches are not only a decoration, they are structurals members and they do have practical use.
So is it impossible to built a bridge without those arches?
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Old January 26th, 2010, 01:43 PM   #1206
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At these photos can see expressway R1 between Banská Bystrica and Zvolen (in the background) at night.
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Pekná jasná noc nad Bystricou


Modrá budova uprostred: Europa BC


V pozadí osvetlený Zvolen
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Old January 26th, 2010, 03:09 PM   #1207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msz2 View Post
I like that bridge although those arches are just decoration without practical use.

I love "proffesionals" who write on this forum. These arches are not only a decoration, they are structurals members and they do have practical use.
A solution involving pillars built closer to each other would have apperantly been much cheaper than these funny arches. I'm not an expert but it's hard to find a architectural reason that would explicitly define the use of the arches.
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Old January 26th, 2010, 04:46 PM   #1208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwert View Post
One more time. Answer this question from my previous post otherwise it doesn't have sense to continue in this discussion.: It's easy to criticise, but what solution do you offer?

Then I will write a response on your previous post. BTW, you are partially right only in point 2.



So is it impossible to built a bridge without those arches?
Of coure it's possible, but spans lenght without these arches would be shorter.
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Old January 26th, 2010, 04:51 PM   #1209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tersyxus View Post
A solution involving pillars built closer to each other would have apperantly been much cheaper than these funny arches. I'm not an expert but it's hard to find a architectural reason that would explicitly define the use of the arches.
Yes you are right, but in that case you would have "millions" columns, arches make spans lenght bigger (I suppose that about 100m) and entire structure looks nicer.
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Old January 26th, 2010, 06:23 PM   #1210
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It's easy to criticise, but what solution do you offer?
problem in points 1,3,4,5 we cannot solute till 2015. point 2 (fees) - less PPP, less fees.
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Old January 26th, 2010, 08:52 PM   #1211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msz2 View Post
Yes you are right, but in that case you would have "millions" columns, arches make spans lenght bigger (I suppose that about 100m) and entire structure looks nicer.
More pillars and no arches would be IMO cheaper solution.

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take off pink glasses, you both have it.
I don't think so...
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Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
1) czechoslovakia had the best infrastructure in past (maybe yugoslavia was comparable) in eastbloc, and nowadays we are 3rd in V4. cz/hu will have in 2015 complete basic network with sufficient connections via I. class roads to all regions. we not - its unforgivable
Slovakia always had worse infrastructure than Czech part of the federation, IMO it was more or less similar to Hungary and probably better than Poland. If we talks about motorways Hungary is better. It's not because they have much more motorways than we, if you consider population length of motorways is similar, they just managed to connect more important centres with their capital with similar (per capita) length of motorways. But, that's something we couldn't possibly avoid.

Only D1 and R1 which will connect all important centres to the capital have together almost 700 kilometres (and D1 and R1 are not all what we need). You cannot expect Slovakia with 5.4 million inhabitants would built 700 km (with other important sections rather 800 km or even more) in the same time as Hungary with 10 million inhabitants managed to build 1,000 km. Not to mention it's not even possible to compare terrain in Slovakia and Hungary.
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2) you have false informations. there is direct correlation between PPP projects and toll - in act of parliament n. 664/2007. toll incomes from PPP roads are incomes of state budget and it must be used as a payment to concessionaire. so because of 150 (or 157) km roads and mainly tunnels in north (thank you for attention, my english is not perfect) Sk we (private cars) will probably pay pretty much fees on all M/Eways. our trucks ALREADY are paying higher fees as on larger network as in czech republic - its unforgivable.
You're partially right, I had wrong information. Toll from PPP roads will be income of state budget, but this toll won't be enough to pay the PPP projects anyway. Important is toll will be the same on both PPP and state owned sections. Let's say there's indirect correlation between toll and PPP, because overwhelming majority of PPP costs will be paid from taxes not from toll. If I remember it correctly toll collected on all roads will be barely one half of annual PPP payment.

I agree toll is quite expensive, but also roads in Slovakia are much more expensive than roads in other countries. They aren't expensive only due to PPP projects (these are used also in other countries), they are expensive because of our terrain.
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3) in PL maybe, merely...
Tell it to somebody form České Budějovice or Békescsaba.
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Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
5) in prague is bypass partly in use, partly u/c and partly in prepare, bypass of budapest is major part in use, the old part is u/rec. we have in use 3 (!!) km which is only connection from AUT to motorway D2 and it´s don´t identified the road line - its unforgivable.
Bratislava has north-south through-pass (D2) which is used also as bypass. It's quite busy, but for now it's enough. We may also say Austrian A4 and Hungarian M1 between Parndorf and Mosonmagyaróvár is actually Bratislava bypass too. (Of course you will say it's not our achievement.) Badly needed is mostly south-eastern part of D4 and I agree it's unforgivable that previous governments neglected its preparation. Now we have to wait for it at least until 2016. IMO in the meantime they should prepare also some upgrade of D1 within Bratislava mostly Harbour bridge, because even if quite big part of traffic would leave it in 2016 there will be already huge traffic within the city for which D4 would be useless.
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4) E75 is not compensation for north-south connection in Central Slovakia. and I don´t talk abou M/E way, but till 2015 we will barely have most of bypasses in orava, between zvolen and sahy and continual 3rd lane via donovaly mountain (like dargov).
I haven't said E75 is compensation for E77, I've just said it's north south connection. Problem of Slovakia is we need many north-south connections due to the shape of our country. D2 (E65) is solved, D3+D3 (E 75) is mostly solved, D1+R4 (E371) will be partially solved soon, the biggest problem is R3 (E77). What we need is to built it all the way from Polish border to D1 ASAP (quite some parts may be finished in 2015), we should upgrade road I/59 (Donovaly mountain pass ASAP, part of it is already done) in the meantime we must repair road I/65 between Martin and Horná Štubňa. It's very good road, but the pavement is terrible. Until 2015 there should be temporarily solved this connection via Banská Bystrica, after 2015 we must redirect E77 to Martin and built R3 between Horná Štubňa and R1 + some bypasses in the southern part.
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it´s incurious, we talk about our problems. either is good connection between komarno and M1 or not. limitations of speed, limitations of weight, I guess 2x3 m wide lanes, road lane via centre of towns...we can talk about good connection as well as our success when the new bridge will be in use.
We are comparing Slovakia to other countries.
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Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
problem in points 1,3,4,5 we cannot solute till 2015. point 2 (fees) - less PPP, less fees.
This is almost what I'm saying. We could only hardly built more motorways. There were some problems which caused delays e.g. D1 through Považská Bystrica or R1 near Žiar nad Hronom, but those sections alone wouldn't make big difference. The only possible solution (but possible in the past, not now) would be to put much more funds into the motorway construction, but we cannot change past.

I'm not satisfied with present state of our road infrastructure, we need much more motorways and expressways, but what to do? We cannot change how Slovakia look like.

PPP is indeed very expensive, on the other hand without PPP we won't finish D1 all the way from Bratislava to Košice before 2015 (actually it should be put in use in 2014) and R1 would be finished later as well. Less PPP doesn't mean less toll. As I've said toll will be only about one half of PPP payments. If we would decide to built those roads without PPP toll would have to be probably even bigger.
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Old January 26th, 2010, 09:33 PM   #1212
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Officials say it should recall Gothic jewels of Spiš region so it's supposed to be Gothic style motorway (maybe they will install there also some gargoyles). But, they probably forgot Gothic style used pointed arches.
Those arches seems to be more "roman", than "gothic". It can symbolize Roma people living in the Spis region
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Old January 26th, 2010, 10:00 PM   #1213
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More pillars and no arches would be IMO cheaper solution.

I would not be so sure, cost estimation would answer for this.
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Old January 27th, 2010, 12:42 PM   #1214
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1) CS has built M/Eways equally, although cz was richer. from Bratislava to kuty, to horna streda, section near nitra, l. mikulas, from ziar to b. bystrica, from kosice to presov...cca 280 km. with quasi-e.ways like kosice-saca maybe 300 km. I don´t think that czech rep. (with 10 mil. inhabintans) had more than 600 km in 1993 and I think hungary (also with 10 mil. inhabintans) had even more less than 600 km. you have right in case of poland.

Quote:
You cannot expect Slovakia with 5.4 million inhabitants would built 700 km (with other important sections rather 800 km or even more) in the same time as Hungary with 10 million inhabitants managed to build 1,000 km.
no 1.000 but cca 1.300 km in this year is reality, we cca 560 km. coefficient is 1,85, comparable number would be cca 700 km. I cannot expect ? WHY ? terrain is an excuse. slovakia will pay for 4,5 km motorway which is parallel to existing and sufficient 4lane road cca 250 mil. €. instead of waiting 2 years and prepare 20-25 km section to zemplin region (good terrain near michalovce). build it till 2014. etc...etc...

2)
Quote:
I agree toll is quite expensive, but also roads in Slovakia are much more expensive than roads in other countries.
motorway connections are uselless when you will pay more than 50 €/month for motorway to neighbour town (only to work, without weekends) or 20 € only for one journey west-east. state will be compelled to cash fees..the state budget haven´t another alternative.

3) I think ceske budjovice or bekescsaba will have partly motorways, maybe half profiles but surely good connection till 2015. and whatabout zemplin region (0,5 mil. inh.) horna nitra (200-250 inh.) etc....etc... ?

4) you have right, I talk only about situation till 2015. I cannot talk possitive, when I haven´t a reason.
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Old January 27th, 2010, 09:15 PM   #1215
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Planned highway network for 2020

The government just published its "Strategy for the development of transportation until 2020". The most important part for this forum is the planned highway network for 2020:
.

Sadly, the R1+R2 southern connection KE-ZV-BA is not going to be finished. But, it will be close enough to be the preferred KE-BA connection (being 60km shorter than D1 via Žilina). Moreover, the construction of R7+R2 should also be quite far ahead, so soon after 2020, the shortest connection of the three largest Slovak cities (BA-KE-PO) will be through the south, despite the governmental preference of the Považie (Žilina+Trenčín) region.

Consistent with the government's strategy of preferring Považie, it is also the case that all the railway development is concentrated on the northwest (see the plan of upgrades). This is particularly paradoxical because the southern railway connection BA-ZV-KE is included in the EU railway network (even though not as one of the primary connections): , while the R1+R2 or R7+R1 highway connection is not...

Final news of the day is that the Finance Minister admitted that the huge Žilina tunnel that's just been approved to be constructed as the 3rd PPP project is too overpriced (8500 mln EUR). So, most likely we will not be able to finance it.
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Old January 27th, 2010, 09:42 PM   #1216
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What about progress on Slovakia's shortest expressways R5 ?
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Old January 27th, 2010, 11:39 PM   #1217
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What about progress on Slovakia's shortest expressways R5 ?
EIA is going on. It could be built before 2015.

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1) CS has built M/Eways equally, although cz was richer. from Bratislava to kuty, to horna streda, section near nitra, l. mikulas, from ziar to b. bystrica, from kosice to presov...cca 280 km. with quasi-e.ways like kosice-saca maybe 300 km. I don´t think that czech rep. (with 10 mil. inhabintans) had more than 600 km in 1993 and I think hungary (also with 10 mil. inhabintans) had even more less than 600 km. you have right in case of poland.
You've got slightly wrong information. In 1992 in Czech Republic there was 366 km of motorways (46 km were U/C). In Slovakia there was 189 km of motorways (I don't know about any U/C sections). Don't mess it with national roads near Nitra and Zvolen or Košice some of these were turned into expressways much later and there were hundreds of km of such roads in Czech Republic. On the other hand, you should realise that while in Slovakia only the cheapest sections were built (all those motorways build before 1993 in Slovakia were in totally flat terrain except short section near Liptovský Mikuláš, which has, however, only expressway parameters) while in Czech Republic there were built very expensive stretch of D1 between Prague and Brno via Czecho-Moravian Highlands.
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no 1.000 but cca 1.300 km in this year is reality, we cca 560 km. coefficient is 1,85, comparable number would be cca 700 km. I cannot expect ? WHY ? terrain is an excuse. slovakia will pay for 4,5 km motorway which is parallel to existing and sufficient 4lane road cca 250 mil. €. instead of waiting 2 years and prepare 20-25 km section to zemplin region (good terrain near michalovce). build it till 2014. etc...etc...
Noone said Slovakia has more motorways than Hungary. This year Hungary will boost its length of motorways thanks to M6 PPP project, Slovakia will get quite some new expressways next year when 46 km of R1 will be put in use (that's like 85 km in Hungary). As I've said before, there is some inefficiency, e.g. section you are mentioning is useless and I don't understand why they want to start its construction this year, the same for R4 south of Košice, but it won't change much in comparison to neighbouring countries.
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2)
motorway connections are uselless when you will pay more than 50 €/month for motorway to neighbour town (only to work, without weekends) or 20 € only for one journey west-east. state will be compelled to cash fees..the state budget haven´t another alternative.
What is source of those figures?
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Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
3) I think ceske budjovice or bekescsaba will have partly motorways, maybe half profiles but surely good connection till 2015. and whatabout zemplin region (0,5 mil. inh.) horna nitra (200-250 inh.) etc....etc... ?
Why do you think so? IMO connection of Horná Nitra will be significantly impoved until 2015, I'm not sure about Zemplín.
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4) you have right, I talk only about situation till 2015. I cannot talk possitive, when I haven´t a reason.
E65 is solved, E75 will be solved until 2015, majority of E371 as well, questionable is only E77.
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Old January 28th, 2010, 02:36 AM   #1218
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An interesting vision of the future development of infrastructure in the Košice-Prešov twin-city area from the Department of Architecture at TU Košice and the Explicit Architecture Lab in Vienna.
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Old January 28th, 2010, 11:07 AM   #1219
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1) 366/189 is 1,936...it´s equally so I have right. we can talk about terrain as well as czech/slovak gdp....

2)
Quote:
What is source of those figures?
I have read a study about the tolls in future...interval of figures was 3-7 cents/km, and this study was written before PPP projetcs....so I´m sure, it will be about 5-7 cents like in many west countries. so 30 km nitra-z. moravce and back or zilina-martin etc...will cost no 50 but 60-90 €/month. and one journey bratislava-kosice (about 430 km) 20-30 €. we can thank for those motorways

3-4)
Quote:
Why do you think so? IMO connection of Horná Nitra will be significantly impoved until 2015, I'm not sure about Zemplín.
I don´t believe it. state budged has only about 130 mil. €/2010 for all M/E ways and next years will be similar. project lists od eurofunds include a few sections in south of central Sk, it´s very good, but almost nothing in horna nitra, nothing in zemplin and nothing in danube region to nove zamky....nothing on E77. in orava are 2 bypasses and that´s all.
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Old January 30th, 2010, 02:31 AM   #1220
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An interesting vision of the future development of infrastructure in the Košice-Prešov twin-city area from the Department of Architecture at TU Košice and the Explicit Architecture Lab in Vienna.
- graphics is eye catching but ideas are pure fantasy especially highly biased especially motorways connections - not so dense population in Eastern Europe to spend money that way.. e.g. Kosice - Moscow (thru Belarus?) why? Moscow needs connection to Berlin thru Poland that's logic

really no special content I would say really simple , information lack any depth, no referencing.... Anyone and alone attending High school (Stredna skola) can prepare same pdf file for any city and within few days..
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