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Old September 15th, 2010, 05:11 PM   #1741
ChrisZwolle
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R4 would more sense if the eastern bypass of Košice would be constructed too.

By the way, Google Earth shows R4 around Svidník as completed, any updates from this bypass?
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Old September 15th, 2010, 05:16 PM   #1742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaRoy View Post
I have read in some newspaper today that Mr Fico was criticizing the government for building this Kosice - Hungarian border motorway, instead completing D1. He said something like "Hungarians will benefit from fees of traffic between Kosice and Bratislava".

Now, is this realistic? Are any people actually going from Kosice to Bratislava through Hungarian M3 / M1? How much sense would this make in terms of time? (Approx 50km is missing between the Slovak border & Miskolc in Hungary, plus M0 Budapest south is currently very congested.)
Yup, driving KE-BA via Budapest is a very common practice these days (the highway is mostly finished, quick, safe, no hills/tunnels...). However, next year things will change as the Slovak R1 expressway will be finished from Bratislava to Zvolen, and the remaining missing expressway R2 section Zvolen-Kosice is currently in a relatively good shape and it is by far the shortest way (BA-ZV-KE 400km vs. 460-485 via BP vs 465 on Slovak D1 via Zilina). The funny bottom-line is that the Slovak D1 will never be used to connect Kosice and Bratislava (because of its length, difficult terrain, and bad climate in the high-altitude hilly north) even though that was the official goal of all the Meciar/Slota/Fico governments.

However, the R4 Kosice-Milhost and the connection to the Hungarian highways will be still important even after the R2 KE-ZV is finished (which will not be soon), as driving from Kosice (and most of Eastern Slovakia) to the Western Europe (Vienna and anywhere further west/south) will be only 25km longer via BP compared to ZV and much shorter via BP than via Zilina (compare on google: BP, ZV, ZA).

By far, the best/shortest connection KE-BA will be via R2+R7 along the southern border. But that connection is not going to be finished for another 20-30 years. BTW a relatively good up-to-date map of the current Slovak highways is here (from http://dialnice.php5.sk/; orange = finished; green = U/C; gray = planned; thick lines = highways; thin lines = expressways):


Last edited by DrX; September 15th, 2010 at 05:24 PM.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 05:19 PM   #1743
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It will be "field-to-field" expressway. On the northern terminus it will be connected with 1+1 national road 68 and on southern terminus to destroyed former chceckpoint in Milhosť. And between Košice and Milhosť you will save maybe 10 minutes.
What really matters is that it will be empty 4 lane expressway.

more useful might be these 3 bypasses in Hungary.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 06:17 PM   #1744
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What are the current traffic volumes between Košice and Milhosť?

According to the Hungarian utadat.hu, traffic volumes between Miskolc and the Slovak border are between 5.000 and 8.000 vehicles per day. Not really a lot, although if you're start building a motorway at 20.000 vehicles per day on a two-lane road, you're obviously too late. It should be seen as an investment in the future, based on solid traffic forecasts by traffic models.

That said, the currently U/C section R4 can hardly cost much more than some € 80 - 90 million. If traffic safety or travel times are problematic, a motorway / 2x2 expressway can be justified at lower traffic volumes.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 06:29 PM   #1745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
based on solid traffic forecasts by traffic models.
as evidenced by the behaviour of all our politicians that is a luxury only rich countries can afford
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Old September 15th, 2010, 07:21 PM   #1746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What are the current traffic volumes between Košice and Milhosť?

According to the Hungarian utadat.hu, traffic volumes between Miskolc and the Slovak border are between 5.000 and 8.000 vehicles per day. Not really a lot, although if you're start building a motorway at 20.000 vehicles per day on a two-lane road, you're obviously too late. It should be seen as an investment in the future, based on solid traffic forecasts by traffic models.

That said, the currently U/C section R4 can hardly cost much more than some € 80 - 90 million. If traffic safety or travel times are problematic, a motorway / 2x2 expressway can be justified at lower traffic volumes.
I have never been there but as guys from East said there are no traffic problems and Slovakia is not so rich country as for example your so it`s really sad but we can`t afford such a investment as a solution for future problems. There are still missing the most important sections of our motorway network and our government is going to build this motorway.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 09:28 PM   #1747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaRoy View Post
He said something like "Hungarians will benefit from fees of traffic between Kosice and Bratislava".
Ohmigod, somebody will BENEFIT from the money that Slovakia wouldn't get anyway (because the drivers already paid for the vignette)? That's HORRIBLE, HE CANNOT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN!!!!11!!!oneoneeleventen!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaRoy View Post
(Approx 50km is missing between the Slovak border & Miskolc in Hungary, plus M0 Budapest south is currently very congested.)
I may be slightly off-topic, but the road from SK border to Miskolc isn't really the problem. Its smooth, nice and has 110km/h limit for some stretches between villages. I've drove there about a month ago.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 10:03 PM   #1748
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I may be slightly off-topic, but the road from SK border to Miskolc isn't really the problem. Its smooth, nice and has 110km/h limit for some stretches between villages. I've drove there about a month ago.
I'm inclined to say a M30 motorway in Hungary could use some 60 - 70% of the existing alignment, save from some bypasses around a few towns (3 or 4 bypasses). The existing road is straight and does not have many intersections or ribbon development.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 10:26 PM   #1749
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gramercy, seem: this topic has been discussed many times on this and other Slovak highway forums. Nobody expects that R4 KE-Milhost will cause a miracle reversal in the regional disparities in Slovakia. But, at 78mil EUR / 14km (-85% paid by EU) this is going to be the cheapest 4-lane expressway ever built in Slovakia and the best money ever spent here, because:
- it will "almost" connect East Slovakia to the European highway network (except for the 4 willages in Hungary). Note that in order to achieve that via Slovak D1, you still need some 10,000 mil EUR which Slovakia doesn't have and won't have for another 15 years (to achieve that via R2 Kosice-Zvolen would be much cheaper, but there is no political will to do that as that road goes through Hungarian-populated border regions of Slovakia).
- 1 km of the "cheaper" of the D1 PPPs (PPP1) was 120 mln EUR (PPP3 will be much more), and between Presov and Martin there are also sections that only have intensities of around 10000 cars/hr. So, how can be R4 less useful than that???
- for the last 20 years, all the infrastructure investment (railways and highways) and Foreign Investment was directed to the region between Bratislava and Zilina (KIA was promised a highway to Zilina and that's one of the reasons why they picked Zilina). So, after years of such biased decisions, how can you expect the intensities to be the same on R4 or R2 as they are somewhere between Zilina and Martin? On the contrary, R4 and R2 should be the infrastructure priorities of any Slovak government that would try to eliminate the regional disparities, as their construction will only slightly equalize the huge imbalances in how infrastructure investment (including EU funding) is distributed in Slovakia (majority of which goes to the hilly region around Zilina).
- Kosice region has the second highest GDP in Slovakia (right after Bratislava), i.e., it is the second largest contributor to the Slovak budget. Despite that, no highways have been built here over the last 20 years (since priorities have always been Bratislava, or the region between Bratislava and Zilina). R4 KE-HU is the first highway section to be constructed here, it's cheap which means that it does not take money from any other sections, and despite that there is a lot of stupid nationalistic aversion against it in Slovakia (as shown by the last Fico's statement).
- most trucks use the Hungarian highways to go between east and west of Slovakia not only because the highways are missing in East Slovakia, but mainly because of the extremely overpriced truck toll system introduced by the corrupt Fico government (picking the most expensive offer in a public tender), which makes the trip via Hungary several times cheaper than via the non-existent Slovak highways.

This year there will be fresh numbers about the intensities on the roads in Slovakia. I'm pretty sure that R4 KE-HU will see a considerable jump. But, overall, I would much rather see more money invested in the R2 Kosice-Zvolen.

PS: Seem, out of curiosity, give me your examples of how to better use the 78mil EUR! And let's see whether you can come up with something that will:
- provide a highway connection of the two main cities in Slovakia
- connect the east and west of Slovakia
- connect Eastern Slovakia to the European highway network
- will stimulate the economy of the Eastern/Southern Slovakia (by improving its access for Foreign Investment) as much as this highway (note that the only significant new industrial park constructed in recent years in Eastern Slovakia is Kechnec, right on this highway R4 and right near the Hungarian border. Why do you think that is??)
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Old September 15th, 2010, 10:48 PM   #1750
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Ok, price is pretty good. So I don`t mind.

I just don`t understand what are you talking about? Do you think that 14 km of this road can affect economy?

btw, please stop this unuseful topic of Bratislava-Košice connection!

and be happy you will have your own 14 km of expressway!!!!

like a ride on a fayre!
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Old September 15th, 2010, 10:55 PM   #1751
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price is never an issue, return is
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Old September 16th, 2010, 12:29 AM   #1752
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This is somewhat off-topic, sorry for that, but someone wrote this:

"to achieve that via R2 Kosice-Zvolen would be much cheaper, but there is no political will to do that as that road goes through Hungarian-populated border regions of Slovakia"

I really have to ask this: is this "Hungarian-populated" thing really a serious consideration when designing road networks in Slovakia? That sounds really poor, especially since those Hungarians live in areas where terrain would make east - west motorways much cheaper to build than up there in the Tatras.

So if this is really the case, what do you think goes on in the minds of those decision makers? I have some ideas, but all of them sound so stupid I do not even dare to list them.
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Old September 16th, 2010, 12:39 AM   #1753
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Please don`t mind DrX`s posts.
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Old September 16th, 2010, 12:46 PM   #1754
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Quote:
R4 would more sense if the eastern bypass of Košice would be constructed too.
Kosice has co-called inner bypass, 4 lanes with fly-over crossings. This is sufficient for this time, but R4 doesn´t includes bypass of sebastovce (village in front of Kosice)

http://www.ssc.sk/files/documents/do...cky/kosice.pdf

blue figures = AADT (in 2005)

Quote:
what do you think goes on in the minds of those decision makers?
We don´t think, we know it. Briefly : inferiority complex.

the poorest region in the past was the nort-eastern. In 50´s the government established the „traffic high school“ and the research institute for traffic in zilina. their opinions are not about traffic or expertness, but regional lobbing. For example the traffic on 4-lane harbour bridge in capital was in 2005 100.000 ADDT and on the 2 lane section of road 63 in inner part of bratislava 23.000 ADDT. Road has traffic lights. road zilina-vrutky has the same traffic but with 7 km 3rd lane and without traffic lights or villages. Or the most dangerous road (deads+wounded) is the line R1 (U/C till 2011).

But I have NEVER heard that zilina-exprerts speaking about necessity of this sections, although AADT-s near zilina is always the main argument. And they don´t talk about bypasses or road recontructions at all, this things are completely out of their minds...

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price is never an issue, return is
nope. Price is always an issue. We don´t have 1,5-2 mld. € for 25 km motorway and don´t want to pay 8,5 bil. € interests for 30 years. I don´t know about returning....but I know that zilina county don´t pay 3 or 5 x more taxes like another countys and will not pay in future.

I think we can build R4 as a half profile, or make bypasses of villages...but the difference in price is neglectable.
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Old September 16th, 2010, 03:01 PM   #1755
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nope. Price is always an issue. We don´t have 1,5-2 mld. € for 25 km motorway and don´t want to pay 8,5 bil. € interests for 30 years. I don´t know about returning....but I know that zilina county don´t pay 3 or 5 x more taxes like another countys and will not pay in future.

I think we can build R4 as a half profile, or make bypasses of villages...but the difference in price is neglectable.
that is exactly what i meant

upgrading 100s of kms of main roads in the region would yield more return
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Old September 16th, 2010, 06:46 PM   #1756
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yeah, but this is not our style, but motorways for 30-60 mil. €/km...this section of R4 is nothing against :

- D1 motorway between zilina-ruzomberok, but first of all zilina bypass
- D3 motorway to czech rep. and poland, poland build an expressway (half profile) and czech republic a good 4-lane road.

- we plan R1 between b. bystrica and ruzomberok and D4 bratislava north but this sections will be start (fortunately) after 2020.

the new government want to build a few (8-9) sections on I. class roads... mostly bypasses, fly-over crossings but it´s not too much. maybe some sections of half-profile expressways will help a bit. so I´m very sceptik about the condition of Sk main roads.

if we talk about west-east connection, bratislava-zvolen will be complete in 2011 and I think this line will the best, especially if bypasses of villages between zvolen nad kosice will be solved. journey via Hu is despite of this a good think if someone wants more motorway sections and hasn´t problem to pay more fees, and for fuel.... or for investors (kechnec and kosice industrial parks for example)
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Old September 16th, 2010, 07:22 PM   #1757
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If we were to built every motorway section at the time, it takes 10 years to complete 100 km. As I understand, the D1 project from Žilina to Ružomberok is well underway in the planning process, so they can move on to the next project, without having to wait until the D1 project is finished. As I understand, D1 was supposed to be under construction by now, so the government could focus on the next few projects, mostly R-roads. Apparently, D1 progress is not going as well as they hoped for, but that doesn't mean all other projects should be called off until the moment D1 is fully progressed.
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Old September 16th, 2010, 07:44 PM   #1758
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Originally Posted by gmbh View Post

- D1 motorway between zilina-ruzomberok, but first of all zilina bypass
- D3 motorway to czech rep. and poland, poland build an expressway (half profile) and czech republic a good 4-lane road.
this is untruth about s-69.
from bielsko-biała to żywiec it will be 2x2, now is u/c. this section will be 25 km long.

from żywiec to slovakia, now all of this section is open ( profile 1x2 about long 19 km and before border profile 2x2 about 1,5 km) except bypass of Węgierskiej Górki, it will be 8 km long and start of u/c(There will be two tunnels) is expected at the end of 2011. bypass of Węgierskiej Górki will be open in 2013/2014.
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Old September 17th, 2010, 10:02 AM   #1759
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what is untruth about S-69 ? from żywiec to slovakia is a half profile, 1,5 km full profile was build with the pretty big custom house. but what for is the custom house in schengen area, except money dealing ?

motorway D3 (sense of it) is maybe the most disputable and this motorway has the biggest problems with financing. the new government wants to begin (in 2012) one new section - cadca-svrcinovec (5 km halfprofile).
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Old September 17th, 2010, 08:22 PM   #1760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
By the way, Google Earth shows R4 around Svidník as completed, any updates from this bypass?
It's almost completed for some time, but it is not opened yet, there were problems with one short stretch damaged by water. Scheduled date of opening is "autumn months of 2010".

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
Kosice has co-called inner bypass, 4 lanes with fly-over crossings. This is sufficient for this time, but R4 doesn´t includes bypass of sebastovce (village in front of Kosice)

http://www.ssc.sk/files/documents/do...cky/kosice.pdf

blue figures = AADT (in 2005)
have a look at the map of traffic in Kosice:

eastern "exit": 12000 aadt, good, but hilly 1+1/2+1 road, D1 is planned in 2012
southwestern "exit": 14000 aadt, good and flat 1+1 road, R2 is planned in 2016 (!)
southern "exit": 7500 aadt, good and flat 1+1 road, R4 is U/C

Is it logical? And let's not forget, that east-western routes in SVK generaly have higher growth of aadt/year that north-southern routes.
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