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Old December 9th, 2009, 09:58 PM   #2401
alexQ
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And also Romania which shares borders only with slavic-languages speaking countries and with Hungary
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Old December 9th, 2009, 10:23 PM   #2402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
I've never understood that silly dispute anyway. Spanish and Portuguese are two sister languages. There is no border between these two languages properly speaking, they form a continuum. Olivenza lies in the area where Spanish merges into Portuguese and vice versa, the people there must always have felt somewhere in between, like people living on border areas always feel, especially when that border area is in a language continuun (and not a sharp language border like, say, Italian and German). So what sense does it make to try and assess if Olivenza people are more Spanish or Portuguese historically?
The think is is that:
a) The Portuguese have an inferiority complex wiht the Spanish
b)Unlike in Eastern Europe, the border between the languages is very clear and the languages are not really mixed up at all (i.e there aren't Portuguese villages in Spain and vice-versa).
c)In continuaiton of A, and because of A the Portuguese will not give up the claim of Olivença and Táliga, both Portuguese areas since the reconquista untill 1801. An example of this is that when they built a dam in the Alentejo, which would affect Spain, the Portuguese send a detailed letter, either to Madrid or to the Extremaduran government giving all the effects. The letter excluded Olivença and Táliga. In the end, the Portuguese send a letter titled "Effects on Spain and the Territory of Olivença". Also, Portuguese government offical maps do not show a border in that region. Another even bigger example is that the Portuguese started building a bridge across the Guadiana in the area without Spanish permission (I belive that eventually the Spanish allowed it after the Spanish police stopped the construction).

In the end, the territory will remain Spanish, as it has became totally hispanified and the people would never wish to become part of Portugal.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 11:06 PM   #2403
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Originally Posted by alexQ View Post
And also Romania which shares borders only with slavic-languages speaking countries and with Hungary
but you have kinda mixing of language in border areas
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Old December 10th, 2009, 12:35 AM   #2404
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Another one, even more crazy.

[img]http://i46.************/mb0g39.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i49.************/244pm4k.jpg[/img]
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Old December 10th, 2009, 12:51 AM   #2405
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but you have kinda mixing of language in border areas



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Old December 10th, 2009, 01:38 AM   #2406
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Very interesting photos!


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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Another one, even more crazy.
[img]http://i46.************/mb0g39.jpg[/img]
Then shouldn't the sign read Tabak instead of Tabac ?
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Old December 10th, 2009, 02:06 AM   #2407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Interesting photo, thank you!

The same situation (though a bit different) occurs in places such as Frankfurt (Oder)-Slubice - I'd be willing to bet that Germans in Frankfurt barely know any Polish whatsoever. I'm actually going there sometime soon to conduct some personal research into language there - the results will be very interesting I think.
You have to keep in mind that the german-polish border there exists only since 1945. The Oder river never ever was a border line until then. The border was established by a person named stalin.

Today named Slubice was a suburb of Frankfurt (Oder) called Dammvorstadt deep inside of Germany until 1945. The polish people resettled to former german territories after 1945 were mostly from former east-polish territories now belonging to the USSR. Due to political reasons, which are not to debate here, noone besides the new border had an interest to learn the others language.

Nevertheless, the results of your studies will be of great interest, feel free to contact me via PM

Last edited by Christophorus; December 10th, 2009 at 02:20 AM.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 03:09 AM   #2408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman159 View Post
Then shouldn't the sign read Tabak instead of Tabac ?
I know. The thing is, on the French language-Dutch language border, French tends to be the dominant language, so you'll see French signs on the Dutch language side of the border, but you'll almost never see Dutch signs on the French language side of the border. Another thing is these shops try to attract French clients because taxes on the Belgian side of the border are lower (for example taxes for tobacco and alcohol), so these shops are mainly destined to French clients and not to Flemish clients, hence the French signs. I was nonetheless surprised because I thought French signs were forbidden or at least extremely frowned upon in Flanders.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 03:25 AM   #2409
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Welcome to France!

This one is interesting because historically it wasn't a language border. On both sides of that border, people spoke a Germanic dialect (South Franconian/Südfränksich, aka Pfälzisch). The French side of the border, however, has undergone francization since WW2, so although I've never been to Altenstadt, I believe people there under 60 y/o now speak French predominantly. This national border has thus in effect become a language border now.

[img]http://i47.************/25iytz4.jpg[/img]
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Old December 12th, 2009, 02:10 PM   #2410
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Algeria/Tunisia



Tunisian border post



Algerian border post

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Old December 12th, 2009, 03:34 PM   #2411
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Old December 12th, 2009, 05:40 PM   #2412
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brisavoine, what's the name of the border town between France and Belgium you posted photos from?
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Old December 12th, 2009, 06:39 PM   #2413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gag Halfrunt View Post
brisavoine, what's the name of the border town between France and Belgium you posted photos from?
It's actually two different towns whose urbanized areas have reached each other. The town on the French side of the border is Halluin. The town on the Belgian side of the border is Menen. Menen (French name: Menin), which was historically the main town (while Halluin was just a village in the southern suburbs of Menen), was actually part of France from the foundation of France in the 9th century to the Peace of Cateau-Cambrésis in 1559. Menen was again part of France from 1667 to 1706. During that time, the famous French military engineer Vauban built strong fortifications around Menen, part of Vauban's fortification works to protect the borders of France. The place where the border stands now (where the two photos were taken) was the southern bastion of Menen's fortifications. Nonetheless these fortifications did not prevent Menen from being captured by the Duke of Malborough in 1706 after a siege and bombardment, and officially surrendered by France to Austria at the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713 (but Halluin remained French, leading to the current border).

Menen was again under French control from 1744 to 1748 when Louis XV freely surrendered it back to Austria along with all the Austrian Netherlands that he had conquered in 1744, a peace move which greatly irritated the French population who did not understand why the king gave back his conquests (afterwards, Louis XV became very unpopular in France). Menen once again became part of France from 1794 to 1814 (the French had not abandonned their idea of conquering the Austrian Netherlands, of which Louis XV had deprived them in 1748, so the Revolutionaries took advantage of the European war against the French Republic to conquer and annex the Austrian Netherlands in 1794). At the time Menen was part of the Lys department, while Halluin was part of the Nord department. However with the fall of Napoleon, France once again lost Menen at the Treaty of Vienna in 1814 (but kept Halluin), and that's I believe when the exact border between the two towns was fixed. After 1814, Menen was never part of France again.

Interestingly, although Menen was historically a West Flemish-speaking town (and not a Romance Picard-speaking town like Lille or Tourcoing), at the 1947 Belgian census (the last census which asked questions regarding language use) a third of the population reported they could speak French. As for Halluin, I don't know if it was historically West Flemish or Picard speaking. By the 19th century, it was French speaking for sure. Initially a village in the southern suburbs of Menen, it grew a lot in the 19th century due to the Industrial Revolution and became a real town. It attracted lots of Flemish immigrants from Belgium who left poor rural Belgian Flanders to come work in the factories of Halluin and the rest of industrial French Flanders, and so a large part of the population (perhaps even the majority of the population) became Dutch speaking (in fact West Flemish speaking, because these immigrants spoke West Flemish dialects and not standard Dutch). Flemish immigration reached its peak in the end of the 19th century. However, the French Republican model of integration for immigrants meant that their children and grandchildren integrated with the French society and abandonned their parents' Flemish language, so today everybody in Halluin speaks French. So that national border is also a language border.
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Old December 12th, 2009, 09:11 PM   #2414
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We come back to Central Europe.



After right side, the village Šilheřovice -they spoke a czech.
after left the village Chałupki (Racibórz County) -they spoke a polish.
But after both sides of the road -people spoke a silesian dialect.











Funny, but the real border separated the garden.
Left - Hať, right - Rudyszwałd (Racibórz County)







Moravian-Silesian Beskids near Bumbálka.
The border Czech Republic and Slovak Republic.


Last edited by Markowice10; December 12th, 2009 at 09:27 PM.
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Old December 12th, 2009, 10:01 PM   #2415
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We come back to Western Europe.

Border between France and the mighty Grand Duchy of Luxembourg!

[img]http://i46.************/2djdr2t.jpg[/img]
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Old December 12th, 2009, 10:22 PM   #2416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
We come back to Western Europe.

Border between France and the mighty Grand Duchy of Luxembourg!
Why was the building of customs office left?
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Old December 12th, 2009, 10:30 PM   #2417
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I think nearly all French border crossings still have customs offices, except for very local roads.
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Old December 12th, 2009, 10:53 PM   #2418
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Awesome pics, I can't believe it!!

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Old December 12th, 2009, 11:20 PM   #2419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I think nearly all French border crossings still have customs offices, except for very local roads.
Just the opposite to France and Luxembourg.

Poland - Czech border.
The province road number 916: Racibórz (PL) -Opava (CZ).

Before year 2008.










At present.
Only traffic islands be left.


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Old December 13th, 2009, 08:30 PM   #2420
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Ever wondered why it's called the "Schengen" area?

(note how the pavement changes when you cross from France into Germany; no country sign though, but it's nonetheless the exact boundary line)
[img]http://i47.************/2s68ojn.jpg[/img]
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