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Old May 1st, 2010, 06:48 PM   #3021
piotr71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Tiburon View Post
American speed limits signs are clearer and easier to read than the European ones.

Have you ever met someone who had any difficulties with reading speed limit signs in Euorope?
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Old May 1st, 2010, 07:37 PM   #3022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piotr71 View Post
Have you ever met someone who had any difficulties with reading speed limit signs in Euorope?
This is a bit of thread drift, but in the entire world, only Canada and the USA do not use the 'red circle' style of speed limit sign. From what I am aware of, that style of sign is INSTANTLY recognizable as saying 'driving faster than this speed is prohibited'. Also, except for in the UK where it is in miles per hour, the number inside of the circle is assumed to be in km/h (Mexico includes "km/h" below the number).

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Old May 1st, 2010, 08:54 PM   #3023
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They seem pretty clear to me. Also, the red circle removes the need for 'SPEED LIMIT' in massive writing, which could cause linguistic difficulties in Europe.
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Old May 1st, 2010, 11:50 PM   #3024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so0okol View Post
Easy? It`s not in Poland . Poland`s sign:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...mit_Poland.png
Well, like Gareth said,the red circle it eliminates the "SPEED LIMIT" letters. A tourist from another country may have problems what it means.
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Old May 1st, 2010, 11:58 PM   #3025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Club_Dru View Post
A couple of situations in Hertog (B) and Nassau (NL)

In this shop you walk between two different countries.
The vertical lines onder the flag, left is Belgium the right is Holland


Supermarket.


The neighbours downstrairs are Dutch, the neighbours upstairs are Belgiums.

The entry for the Dutch and Belgium neighbour



Policestation. Left Belgium police-logo, the right Dutch police-logo
Thet would be awsome to have your small buisness on 2 countries at the same time...
Sorry 4 double-post
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Old May 2nd, 2010, 06:56 AM   #3026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feryuc View Post
Thet would be awsome to have your small buisness on 2 countries at the same time...
Sorry 4 double-post
I imagine it might be a nightmare. Would you have to be registered in both and submit 2 tax returns? Also is the rule the same for businesses in that you are in the same country as your front door?
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Old May 2nd, 2010, 07:33 AM   #3027
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All that I can think of is:

"It is a very good thing that those two countries are AT PEACE!!!"



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless View Post
I imagine it might be a nightmare. Would you have to be registered in both and submit 2 tax returns? Also is the rule the same for businesses in that you are in the same country as your front door?
From what I am aware of, at least for residential purposes, if your residence straddles the line, you live in the country that the front door is in. If the door straddles the line, you can pick which of the two to call home. Also, if you don't like one country, you can move the door to the other side of the border and you have just emigrated. I don't know if that rule also applies to businesses.

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Old May 2nd, 2010, 03:02 PM   #3028
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Although I usually don't react on offtopic chatting, I do feel I need to have my say about the speed limit signs difference.

Here's an image I made to compare the two types of signs at the same size (yes, it's small, but you don't usually look at a sign from a metre distance either, do you?):



I personally think the numbers are equally readable, but the text won't always be so readable. That could be a problem, if there are other signs that look exactly like that but have some other text there - but I'm not sure if those exist. All in all: it's out there in the world, it all does its job as it should and I haven't heard of any real issues with them. Therefore I don't see why things would have to be changed. Sure, the circle with number is universal and understood by everybody, but the speed limit sign is also understood by everybody, thus serving its point.

Greetings,
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Old May 2nd, 2010, 05:50 PM   #3029
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Luxembourg - Belgium border.

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr
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Old May 2nd, 2010, 07:17 PM   #3030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glodenox View Post
Although I usually don't react on offtopic chatting, I do feel I need to have my say about the speed limit signs difference.

Here's an image I made to compare the two types of signs at the same size (yes, it's small, but you don't usually look at a sign from a metre distance either, do you?):



I personally think the numbers are equally readable, but the text won't always be so readable. That could be a problem, if there are other signs that look exactly like that but have some other text there - but I'm not sure if those exist. All in all: it's out there in the world, it all does its job as it should and I haven't heard of any real issues with them. Therefore I don't see why things would have to be changed. Sure, the circle with number is universal and understood by everybody, but the speed limit sign is also understood by everybody, thus serving its point.

Greetings,
Glodenox
Some USA states use white square highway route markers that, from a distance or for those not from the area, can look a lot like speed limit signs. One that I often bring up is that it is not unusual for Chicago city police to stop motorists for speeding on Cicero Ave - "Isn't the speed limit here 50 (MPH)?" "No, this is Illinois state route 50, the speed limit here is 35 (MPH)". Illinois uses a white square with a black outline with the word 'ILLINOIS' at the top for its state highway route markers.

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Old May 3rd, 2010, 01:41 PM   #3031
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Back to borders: Some more pictures of the NL-DE-border.

Glanerbrug (NL) - Gronau (DE)







Glane (NL) - Gronau (DE)








Overdinkel (NL) - Gronau (DE)





Overdinkel (NL) - Gronau (DE) - Ravenshorst (DE).
These pictures are taken at the 'tripoint' Netherlands with the German state (Bundesländer) Nordrhein-Westfalen (NRW) and Niedersachsen (NS).

Border NRW-NS


Closer to the bordermarker


Kilometer 0,0 of the L42 on the border between the 2 German states. Picture is taken from Dutch territory.


Dutch-German bordermarker, also the border between NS and NRW


Agian the bordermarker, looking towards NRW (southern direction). Picture is taken from NS. Immidiately right of the road is Dutch territory.


The border NRW-NS seen from the bordermarker of the first 2 pictures, the Netherlands are at the other side of the road.
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Old May 3rd, 2010, 06:30 PM   #3032
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Quote:
These pictures are taken at the 'tripoint' Netherlands with the German state (Bundesländer) Nordrhein-Westfalen (NRW) and Niedersachsen (NS).

Border NRW-NS
Both NRW and NS are not the official abbreviations. NRW is quite popular, but the official code is NW. Niedersachsen has the NI abbreviation.

NS may be an old abbreviation for Niederschlesien (Dolny Śląsk) in modern-day Poland.
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Old May 3rd, 2010, 11:16 PM   #3033
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German - Belgian border

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr

(Belgium starts at the blue sign)

image hosted on flickr

German letterbox on the border, yellow (German) signs in Belgium

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr

View from Belgium to Germany
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Old May 4th, 2010, 05:57 PM   #3034
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"Glane afgesloten voor doorgaand vrachtverkeer"? (Post 3031, images 9 and 11 if I counted right.)
That's an awful lot of untranslated Dutch for a sign at a border. You'd think the European Union would do something about that.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 06:17 PM   #3035
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Welcome to Europe that blames America for using textual signs...
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Old May 4th, 2010, 06:25 PM   #3036
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To rewrite it in german style, it would mean that Dorf Glane ist abgeschlossen für Durchgang-Frachtverkehr? Easy solution would be typical sign for "no lorries" and additional sign with "local traffic allowed" (nur Quell- und Zielverkehr in D). I've seen many of them throughout EU...
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Old May 4th, 2010, 06:29 PM   #3037
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This one is a border in several different ways, with an interesting history. We are on the border between the Dutch municipality of Vaals and the Belgian municipality of Gemmenich (which was merged with the neighboring municipality of Plombières in 1977). In other words, this is the international border between Belgium and the Netherlands.

Historically, Vaals was part of the Land of Herzogenrath (in Dutch: Land van 's-Hertogenrade; in French: Pays de Rolduc). Gemmenich belonged to the Duchy of Limburg, a duchy entirely located in modern-day Belgium, in the current province of Liège. Note that the Belgian province of Limburg and the Dutch province of Limburg both bear the name "Limburg", but these two provinces are historical imposters, because their territory never belonged to the real Limburg, which was entirely contained within the current province of Liège, and whose capital was the Romance-speaking town of Limbourg.

Already lost? You ain't seen nothing yet, it's going to become even more complicated.

The dukes of Brabant acquired the Land of Herzogenrath and the Duchy of Limburg in the 13th century, so these two territories became dependencies of Brabant, and passed under Burgundian rule and later Spanish rule (Spanish Netherlands) like the rest of Brabant. The dukes of Brabant also acquired the County of Dalhem (corresponding more or less to Maastricht and the Dutch province of Limburg today). For administrative purposes, the Brabantian authorities in Brussels decided to group all these dependencies together under the name "Limburg" (that's the reason why the Dutch province of Maastricht claimed the name "Limburg" in the 19th century, because the County of Dalhem had been grouped with Limburg by the Brabantian authorities for administrative purposes, even though strictly speaking the Duchy of Limburg proper never encompassed the current Dutch province of Limburg).

During the Reformation, the northern part of the Low Countries rebelled against Spanish Catholic rule, and became the United Provinces, later the Netherlands. The administrative unit of Limburg (i.e. the Duchy of Limburg + the Land of Herzogenrath + the County of Dalhem) petitioned The Hague to become part of the United Provinces, but Spain of course refused. War ensued, and eventually, after many decades of war, the Netherlands and Spain agreed to partition the administrative unit of Limburg between them. The Duchy of Limburg remained entirely Spanish, while the County of Dalhem and the Land of Herzogenrath were divided between Spain (Spanish Netherlands) and the United Provinces (each getting half of it).

On that occasion, Vaals entered the United Provinces (it was the part of the Land of Herzogenrath given to the United Provinces), while Gemmenich remained part of the Spanish Netherlands (and later the Austrian Netherlands), like the rest of the Duchy of Limburg. The border in the pics below is thus an international border since 1661.

During the French rule (1794-1814) and Dutch rule (1815-1830), this border ceased to be an international border, given that it was now fully within the French Republic, then the French Empire, then the Kingdom of the Netherlands. When Belgium seceded from the Netherlands in 1830, they wished to include the territory of the current Dutch province of Limburg within Belgium, but after several years of war it was decided by the 1839 Treaty of London that Maastricht and the territory around it would remain under Dutch control. The southern border of the Netherlands around Vaals was fixed on the ancient Medieval borders, i.e. the Medieval border separating the Duchy of Limburg and the Land of Herzogenrath.

In other words, the international border in the pics below existed from 1661 to 1794, and has again existed from 1839 until today. But the story doesn't end here.

Historically, people in both Vaals and Gemmenich spoke a Germanic transitional dialect between the Dutch and German dialect areas which has been given a bewildering number of names (South-East Limburgish, Southern-Meuse Rhenish, Ripuarian transitional, Low Dietsch, etc.; in French: francique carolingien), but which locals simply call Platduutsj, or Platt (in French: Thiois). In this dialect Gemmenich is known as Jömelech, while Vaals is known as Vols. In Gemmenich, people viewed their dialect as being more German than Dutch (in the Belgian linguistic censuses of the 19th century, where they had a choice between listing their language as either Dutch, French, or German, 90% of the people in Gemmenich listed their language as "German", whereas only 5% listed their language as "Dutch"). In Vaals I don't know how people viewed their language.

After 1839, authorities in Gemmenich used only French, which was the official language of the province of Liège within which Gemmenich is located, whereas authorities in Vaals used only Dutch. Education was also in French in Gemmenich, and in Dutch in Vaals. As a result, these two neighboring municipalities started to diverge linguistically speaking. Although many people kept talking the Platt dialect on both sides of the border, people in Vaals started to use more and more standard Dutch, whereas people in Gemmenich started to use more and more French. In 1919, Belgium was given the German territory of Eupen and Sankt Vith as a compensation for the German invasion. In Eupen people spoke a Franconian dialect close to the dialect spoken in Gemmenich and Vaals, but the writen language was standard German, and inside Belgium the territory of Eupen and Sankt Vith was allowed to keep standard German as its official language, and this territory has now become the German-speaking Community of Belgium. On the other hand, the Germanic-speaking municipalities of the Liège province that had been part of Belgium since 1839 were not given such linguistic rights. In these municipalities, known as "Old Belgium" (as opposed to Eupen and Sankt Vith which are known as "New Belgium"), French remained the only official language. Furthermore, due to the trauma of the two German invasions in WW1 and WW2, the people in the municipalities of "Old Belgium" rejected any association of their dialect with the German language, and French made great progress among the local population. At the 1930 census, 80% of people in Gemmenich still reported that the language they used the most was "German" (in fact Platt), while only 17% reported that the language they used the most was French. At the 1947 census, the people who reported that "German" was the language they used the most had dropped to 24%, while the people who reported that French was the language they used the most had inflated to 63%.

Today, everybody speaks French in Gemmenich and Dutch in Vaals. In Vaals many people of course still continue to speak the local dialect, which is quite different from standard Dutch, although I wonder if that's still the case for young people. In Gemmenich about half of the population is still able to speak the local dialect, but it is essentially the old people who can speak it. This international border has thus in effect become a language border. The border between Germanic-speaking and Romance-speaking Europe.

I bet few people knew that a tiny part of the Netherlands bordered Romance-speaking Europe.

[img]http://i39.************/1441b4k.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i44.************/rr4487.jpg[/img]

Last edited by brisavoine; May 4th, 2010 at 06:38 PM.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 06:33 PM   #3038
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Welcome to Europe that blames America for using textual signs...
Well, I didn't want to say that. ;-)
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Old May 4th, 2010, 06:39 PM   #3039
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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
I bet few people knew that a tiny part of the Netherlands bordered Romance-speaking Europe.
Please. Belgium and its sociolinguistic geography fascinate me. :-)
Actually, there's another point where the Netherlands borders Romance-speaking Europe. Can you find it?
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Old May 4th, 2010, 06:42 PM   #3040
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@ Brisavoine, the Netherlands also borders Romance-speaking Europe south of Maastricht. There is only one Dutch road that continues as a French-language road though, because of the Meuse river being the border.

[IMG]http://i40.************/2v1qgs2.jpg[/IMG]
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