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Old May 6th, 2010, 08:02 PM   #3081
brisavoine
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Originally Posted by Thermo View Post
So what? If a Brussels district like Molenbeek or Schaarbeek has a majority of Moroccan people, shoud it become part of Morocco?
So for you the Francophone Belgians are like immigrants? Immigrants into their own country? Fascinating insight into the Flemish mind...
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Borders are to be respected. Period.
Like I said, that's so postnational, so post-Schengen...
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Old May 6th, 2010, 08:09 PM   #3082
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Belgian-situation-related and highway-related news item of the day :-) (in French) :

http://www.lalibre.be/toutelinfo/bel...-voorpost.html
That's nothing compared to the other ridiculous things happening in Belgian transports, like the trains on the Liège-Brussels line, a line which crosses the Wallonia-Flanders border several time, so sometimes the announcements are in Dutch only, and sometimes the announcements are in French only.

Last year there was the case of a train from Wallonia to Brussels which broke down while crossing Flemish territory, so all the passengers had to leave the train and take buses to Brussels. At the local train station where the train broke down, the employees of the train company refused to speak French to the mostly French-speaking passengers, because they were "on Flemish territory", where only Dutch is official.

Only in Belgium!
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Old May 6th, 2010, 08:20 PM   #3083
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
No. No, no, no, no, no.

English belongs first and foremost to its native speakers. If all of Europe adopts English (or rather, what it thinks of as English) as its Esperanto, the next step will be continentals complaining that Brits, Americans, and so on, use words and expressions they don't understand. (Actually, the New York Times a few years ago published a column suggesting that native speakers of English water down their English out of consideration to foreigners.)...
I could not say that English belongs to anyone. It is just a language. Perhaps Java belongs to the Sun Inc. but only for around 20? years.



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Very few people - try as hard as they might - ever speak a language other than their own perfectly.
I agree. Therefore I would welcome if English would be accepted as official language in every European country . I really don't feel that strong in my Dutch and I guess that Dutch officials don't know much from Czech (considering they know the country at all.). We could hardly argue about the position of English in the modern society. Analogy with Latin and middle ages comes at hand, its just comes handy that Eglish is much easier language . What I wanted to say is that we should be concerned about well being of individuals not nations. For an individual is much easier to learn one foreign language and use it at some acceptable level than to learn 25 or how many languages not being able to use them at all. BTW some of the documents issued by EU institutions are available only in English anyway. So to speak for me it makes more sence to use english when approaching the Dutch institution than my Dutch, and for the people on the other side holds the same. When my Dutch reaches the level that using it would yield better results I will certainly use it.

Quote:
I shudder to think what a Europe with English as its official second language would look like. (Or rather, what the mutilated English of that Europe would look like.)
An Indian speaking mutilated English would make it clear . Just funny is that he is native .


As long as it is about Belgium I guess they should either learn how to accept each other (Do I remember correctly that I read in Brussel's atomium Belgish boasting about their trilinguality?The expo was around 50s... exhibition is there still ). Interesting that Swiss can do that for centuries without problems. I would say that the Belgish problem will be more economy and political driven than anything else. And when we look at the difference in the economic situation of the Netherlands and France we cut the knot.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 08:43 PM   #3084
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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
... the employees of the train company refused to speak French to the mostly French-speaking passengers, because they were "on Flemish territory", where only Dutch is official.
Oh ...
my ...
God!

What about good old courtesy?


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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods
Let me just say to Surel, after my little rant ...
It’s not like we haven’t noticed that you are impartial to the occasional bout of ranting.


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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods
But that's sort of my point. It's just about impossible to ever speak a language you're not born into ...
You have a point there but you must not overstate your argument.

In my view, the ability to speak (or use) another language well is highly correlated to several factors, not least of which is your own linguistic point of reference, that is, your own language. A Dane will find it easy to learn Swedish but ask him to learn Russian and he’ll find the task daunting, if not impossible. Similarly, a native English speaker should find it easy to learn several European languages including French, Spanish, German and Dutch as they have similar general structure and grammar. And yes, every language has its quirks, rule exceptions and other irregularities, not to mention idioms, which only native speakers are likely to know intimately (though some never seem to do). But that does not mean that you cannot learn all that stuff – it’s jolly hard but not impossible. In my view it’s all about exposure, opportunity, practice and innate ability.

Surel’s proposal of having a common European second language is not as daft as it might seem at first. Imagine going a on a trip to another EU state and falling ill or having an accident (or whatever else may befall your fate). How would you get yourself out of trouble without knowing the local lingo? Of course, you can spend your way out of trouble but that is not equal access. Or you might use that well-tried-and-tested method of speaking slowly and loudly in your own language in the vain hope that someone might understand you.

A common second language is a very practical and utilitarian solution. The advantage of having just one second language is that life becomes that little bit more predictable in times of need. Of course, which language we should pick on is political dynamite. But, as they say, possession is nine tenths of the law so English would be a natural choice.

On this forum, there is a plurality of linguistic reference points and hence there is a large disparity in how cleanly users use English. Try as you might, you will never eradicate this issue. Nor should you try to because this is not a forum for language geeks but a forum for road geeks and we allow a bit of grammatical slack.

Personally, I find learning languages akin to having my wisdom tooth pulled out - it is just not my thing. My better half, on the other hand, is fluent in three and has functional use of another three languages. To her it’s all child's play. But we all have a basic need to communicate and exchange ideas. Therefore, instead of getting distressed that your native language gets butchered, distorted, contorted and otherwise screwed up here on this forum, may I suggest - and I mean it in the nicest possible way - that you just politely turn a blind eye to it every now and then, and we’ll all get on marvellously well. Or at least develop a positive attitude towards this perceived ‘problem’. None of our mistakes are intentional or malicious but rather they all stem from our diverse abilities to learn and communicate effectively in that strange, aurally pleasant yet often unfathomable lingo known as English.


.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 08:55 PM   #3085
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So for you the Francophone Belgians are like immigrants? Immigrants into their own country? Fascinating insight into the Flemish mind...
In a way, yes, they are immigrants in Flanders. Just like Flemish people in Wallonia are.
Just like someone from Texas needs to accept the laws of California if he decides to live in California.

Even internal borders need to be respected to keep the peace. Belgium is a federal state, so the 'states' Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels act a bit as 'semi-countries' within Belgium. Clearly, you don't understand federal logic.

I don't think Québec would be happy if Ontario systematically claimed Québec territory, don't you think?

Last edited by Thermo; May 6th, 2010 at 09:04 PM.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:02 PM   #3086
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Like I said, that's so postnational, so post-Schengen...
As if France would ever give up some of its territory...
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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:14 PM   #3087
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Yep, I'm replying here again. Seeing us Flemish and Belgians getting trashed this hard by a person makes my heart bleed.


I'd like to add a small anecdote of what has happened about 3 times to me in the 3 years I travelled between Antwerp (Dutch) and Brussels (not into Brussels itself, but only towards it), which will shed some light from another direction as well on that train breakdown story:

Sometimes it's a bit hard (even for me) to understand which train has just arrived on the platform in my local station because two trains with different destinations arrive quite shortly after each other. Therefore I sometimes ask which train it is at the conductor.

In total I've had that situation roughly 60 times. 2 times I had to explain myself in French because the conductor couldn't even understand "Does this train go towards [station name]?" in Dutch (which in itself is extremely simple phrase). I could've easily perceived this as "He/She simply refuses to help me in my language?!" as well.

While I was not there when that train broke down, I'm 99% certain that person simply didn't know any French (I guess the company doesn't take into account that while the territory is Dutch-speaking, lots of French-speaking people would pass through there as well).

That's a completely different look at the same situation, with a much more logical explanation. It may look like refusing, but could very well mean that the person really doesn't know the language - since the company doesn't require that there.

Also understand that I didn't really mind about having to switch to French in those situations, but some people (from both sides of the language border) apparently misinterpret these situations completely. The media seems to like this kind of stories nowadays.

I'm not aware of a single rule that says that people working at the stations may not help people in other languages and I've never experienced something like that when I was elsewhere in Belgium, so according to me that story is complete rubbish. Unless it got confirmed by the rail company, I'm not impressed.

Greetings,
Glodenox
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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:17 PM   #3088
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Oh ...
my ...
God!

What about good old courtesy?
If you tell that to the Flemish employees at that local train station, they'll probably answer something along the lines of "when the Bruxellois shop keepers start talking to us in Dutch when we go shopping in Brussels, we'll start talking French to the Francophone clients in the train station here". And the circle goes on...
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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:19 PM   #3089
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As if France would ever give up some of its territory...
What does that have to do with an internal border within Belgium?
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Originally Posted by Thermo View Post
I don't think Québec would be happy if Ontario systematically claimed Québec territory, don't you think?
For the records, Wallonia is not claiming any Flemish territory. The issue in Belgium is whether Brussels, a bilingual region, should expand and annex 6 largely French-speaking municipalities located on Flemish territory. It's not as if these 6 municipalities would be "lost" to the Flemings, because Brussels, again, is a bilingual city, French and Dutch speaking.

Last edited by brisavoine; May 6th, 2010 at 09:26 PM.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:35 PM   #3090
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For the records, Wallonia is not claiming any Flemish territory. The issue in Belgium is whether Brussels, a bilingual region, should expand and annex 6 largely French-speaking municipalities located on Flemish territory. It's not as if these 6 municipalities would be "lost" to the Flemings, because Brussels, again, is a bilingual city, French and Dutch speaking.
Now we come to the point. Brussels is indeed officially "bilingual", but in fact, in reality, it is French-speaking. "Bilingual" in Belgium means in fact French-speaking.

That is why Flanders is afraid to loose some of its territory because it knows it will be lost forever. Brussels once was a Dutch-speaking city... and look at the situation today....

For those who want a good map of the current situation:



Belgium is a federal state. Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels all have their own parliament and government.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:01 PM   #3091
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But what about the Germans in the east of Belgium ? What do they think about the current issues between French-speaking and Dutch-speaking Belgians ? And another question: do they have some particular rights in the French-speaking Wallonia ?
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:01 PM   #3092
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Originally Posted by MAG View Post
Oh ...
my ...
God!

What about good old courtesy?



It’s not like we haven’t noticed that you are impartial to the occasional bout of ranting.




You have a point there but you must not overstate your argument.

In my view, the ability to speak (or use) another language well is highly correlated to several factors, not least of which is your own linguistic point of reference, that is, your own language. A Dane will find it easy to learn Swedish but ask him to learn Russian and he’ll find the task daunting, if not impossible. Similarly, a native English speaker should find it easy to learn several European languages including French, Spanish, German and Dutch as they have similar general structure and grammar. And yes, every language has its quirks, rule exceptions and other irregularities, not to mention idioms, which only native speakers are likely to know intimately (though some never seem to do). But that does not mean that you cannot learn all that stuff – it’s jolly hard but not impossible. In my view it’s all about exposure, opportunity, practice and innate ability.

Surel’s proposal of having a common European second language is not as daft as it might seem at first. Imagine going a on a trip to another EU state and falling ill or having an accident (or whatever else may befall your fate). How would you get yourself out of trouble without knowing the local lingo? Of course, you can spend your way out of trouble but that is not equal access. Or you might use that well-tried-and-tested method of speaking slowly and loudly in your own language in the vain hope that someone might understand you.

A common second language is a very practical and utilitarian solution. The advantage of having just one second language is that life becomes that little bit more predictable in times of need. Of course, which language we should pick on is political dynamite. But, as they say, possession is nine tenths of the law so English would be a natural choice.

On this forum, there is a plurality of linguistic reference points and hence there is a large disparity in how cleanly users use English. Try as you might, you will never eradicate this issue. Nor should you try because this is not a forum for language geeks but a forum for road geeks and we allow a bit of grammatical slack.

Personally, I find learning languages akin to having my wisdom tooth pulled out - it is just not my thing. My better half, on the other hand, is fluent in three and has functional use of another three languages. To her it’s all child's play. But we all have a basic need to communicate and exchange ideas. Therefore, instead of getting distressed that your native language gets butchered, distorted, contorted and otherwise screwed up here on this forum, may I suggest - and I mean it in the nicest possible way - that you just politely turn a blind eye to it every now and then, and we’ll all get on marvellously well. Or at least develop a positive attitude towards this perceived ‘problem’. None of our mistakes are intentional or malicious but rather they all stem from our diverse abilities to learn and communicate effectively in that strange, aurally pleasant yet often unfathomable lingo known as English.


.
Sure, I understand what you're saying. I certainly didn't mean to pick on Surel for a very minor error. And the quality of English on this forum doesn't bother me. (I make an exception for the old post I read a couple of weeks ago when a non-English speaker put someone else down with "No one says Cologne today." Which is untrue, and not for him to say: our language, we get to make the rules - organically, in the way normal languages develop - it's up to non-native-speakers to learn it the best they can, not to change its rules for their convenience. And sure as hell not to use their idea of what it should be like as a tool to be rude to others.)

The issues I see here is...in the Europe I first discovered in the 80s, most people seemed to learn several languages. Dutch people then all learned English, French and German. I can still remember hearing a restaurant hostess in Amsterdam switch effortlessly among all four. I really envy that ability and even more so the opportunity to develop it. I love languages myself but am stuck in one of the most monolingual environments imaginable (and it was worse before I could get, say, a French newscast on the Internet, or watch a French DVD with the subtitles turned off so I have to try to understand....) The trend towards everyone in Europe using English as a second language is worrisome from a European point of view because it seems to me a step backwards. (French-speaking Belgians dismissing Dutch as "useless" ? Or defending their bad Dutch by saying they never have the opportunity to use it? Heck, it's not useful to be able to understand the media of the other half of your own country? You can't "use" Dutch by driving to Antwerp for a Saturday afternoon or watching the VRT news some evening?) But that's their business, not mine.

From the English-speaker's point of view, at least mine...well, a Dane, for example, can use English in business or when traveling, and still has Danish to fall back on if he wants to become a journalist or write a novel (granted, he'd then need to get it translated if he wants an audience beyond Denmark). But if the rest of the world has just taken over English and started watering it down, what happens to our fall-back language? Do Americans and British people a few generations from now lose the ability to understand our classic literature, or the ability to communicate with each other with subtlety and finesse because they've lost the vocabulary, because our generation decided it was politically correct to simplify our language so that (say) Germans and French people can use it with each other? This may not seem like a serious concern, but it could happen.

All of that said, I see Surel's point: it would be perfectly appropriate and reasonable for employees at Dutch town halls to be able to speak some English (and why not French and German too? Turkish in areas with large Turkish-immigrant populations?) to be able to communicate with people who aren't comfortable in Dutch. But a "second official language," as in Parliament starts passing Dutch and English versions of all laws? That to me is a step too far. Both because it endangers Dutch and the culture that comes with it - because at some point people will start asking, "why do we need Dutch?" - and because it really does seem to me like an inappropriate appropriation (sorry...) of my language.

And (back to Belgium) as for your point about "good old courtesy", the situation with the broken-down train is an example of how Belgian language policy can become absurd in certain situations. As I understand it, it's illegal for government employees in areas that are designated as Dutch-speaking (without the "facilities" for French that exist in certain municipalities) to communicate with the public in any language other than Dutch. The motivation for this, when the first language law was passed around 1920, was to take away the French-speaking upper classes' ability (in "Flemish areas") to discriminate against Flemings (in hiring for the better jobs and so on) by establishing the idea that Dutch was the language of those areas. Or something like that. To be fair, the same is true in French-speaking parts of the country too. And I wouldn't necessarily assume that the Flemish train-station employees were refusing to speak French as opposed to just not knowing French. And again, if the same situation happened in the other half of the country, would the French-speaking train-station employees be able to speak Dutch even if policy and the law permitted it?

Last edited by Penn's Woods; May 6th, 2010 at 10:07 PM.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:03 PM   #3093
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While I was not there when that train broke down, I'm 99% certain that person simply didn't know any French (I guess the company doesn't take into account that while the territory is Dutch-speaking, lots of French-speaking people would pass through there as well).
I've been trying to find the newspaper article reporting that incident, but I couldn't locate it. The incident happened about a year ago (or maybe 2 years ago, time flies!). From what I remember, there wasn't just one employee in that local train station, there were several employees who had been despatched there to deal with the people leaving the train. After these employees refused to talk in French, the clients started to rebel and create havoc, so finally some employees broke the rule and answered back in French. Since I can't find the article, I have no link to give you unfortunately, but you can't deny that such things happen in Belgium.

For example take the story of Nadine (and this time I have a link). Nadine is a 35 y/o policewoman who is a native French speaker but she also speaks Dutch fluently. Nadine lives in Flanders (maybe she's one of these Bruxellois who's moved to the suburbs of Brussels in Flanders). In June 2008 she took the train from Brussels to Aalst (a Flemish town located 24 km from Brussels), as she often does. On arriving in Aalst, her cell phone rang, it was her husband. While leaving the train and walking on the platform, she chitchatted with her husband on the phone in French. Suddenly a guy walked by her and shouted at her: "Hier moet je nederlands spreken !" (which means "Here you must speak Dutch!"). Nadine was of course shocked, and she replied angrily to the guy in Dutch.

Nadine also told the journalist that a colleague of her who is a native Dutch speaker was one day in a train, talking to a friend on her cell phone in French, and two passengers around her who couldn't stand the fact that she was speaking French made some remarks. The colleague was of course outraged.

Link: http://www.dhnet.be/infos/faits-dive...s-spreken.html
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:24 PM   #3094
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But what about the Germans in the east of Belgium ? What do they think about the current issues between French-speaking and Dutch-speaking Belgians ? And another question: do they have some particular rights in the French-speaking Wallonia ?
Funny you should ask. In today's news:

http://www.lalibre.be/actu/elections...-sera-pas.html

Strictly speaking, German-speaking Belgium isn't part of "French-speaking Wallonia". Wallonia is a "region" - an entity whose competences are in the area of economics, infrastructure.... For matters like education and culture, the German-speaking area is a "community" on the same level as the Flemish and French communities. But according to this article, the German-speaking area is seeking the powers of a "region," and its own representation in Parliament, which it doesn't have now because its population is too small (it votes with the French-speaking areas next to it.)
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:36 PM   #3095
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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
I've been trying to find the newspaper article reporting that incident, but I couldn't locate it. The incident happened about a year ago (or maybe 2 years ago, time flies!). From what I remember, there wasn't just one employee in that local train station, there were several employees who had been despatched there to deal with the people leaving the train. After these employees refused to talk in French, the clients started to rebel and create havoc, so finally some employees broke the rule and answered back in French. Since I can't find the article, I have no link to give you unfortunately, but you can't deny that such things happen in Belgium.

For example take the story of Nadine (and this time I have a link). Nadine is a 35 y/o policewoman who is a native French speaker but she also speaks Dutch fluently. Nadine lives in Flanders (maybe she's one of these Bruxellois who's moved to the suburbs of Brussels in Flanders). In June 2008 she took the train from Brussels to Aalst (a Flemish town located 24 km from Brussels), as she often does. On arriving in Aalst, her cell phone rang, it was her husband. While leaving the train and walking on the platform, she chitchatted with her husband on the phone in French. Suddenly a guy walked by her and shouted at her: "Hier moet je nederlands spreken !" (which means "Here you must speak Dutch!"). Nadine was of course shocked, and she replied angrily to the guy in Dutch.

Nadine also told the journalist that a colleague of her who is a native Dutch speaker was one day in a train, talking to a friend on her cell phone in French, and two passengers around her who couldn't stand the fact that she was speaking French made some remarks. The colleague was of course outraged.

Link: http://www.dhnet.be/infos/faits-dive...s-spreken.html
Hmmm. I'd suggest not taking individual cases of rudeness and generalizing them to their entire communities. I'd suggest even more so that those of us who aren't Belgians refrain from doing so.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:44 PM   #3096
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a native English speaker should find it easy to learn several European languages including French, Spanish, German and Dutch as they have similar general structure and grammar.
.
I would rather put it in the other way round. German and Dutch are more connected to English and probably easier to learn by English speakers. From Romance languages English inherited significant part of its vocabulary, but grammar might be an issue for Germanic nations.
Never mind.
I am full of admiration for the level of English you write. In particular that you are a member of Slavic tribe, so could find not easy to use strict sentence building rules applied in English. I heard about only one gentleman who did it in such perfect way and must ask you, whether you are not his son. Son of Joseph Conrad.

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Old May 6th, 2010, 11:02 PM   #3097
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So for you the Francophone Belgians are like immigrants? Immigrants into their own country? Fascinating insight into the Flemish mind...

Like I said, that's so postnational, so post-Schengen...
The large majority of Arabic or Berber speaking people in Brussels have the Belgian nationality. So for you Belgians of Moroccan origin are not real Belgians? What if a majority of people of Belgian nationality in Brussels speak Arabic or Berber, would that still be any different than Belgian Francophones in Flanders?
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Old May 6th, 2010, 11:20 PM   #3098
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Just out of curiosity: Do you have any statistics about the percentage of Belgian Francophones capable of using at least basic Dutch and vice versa?

Do you have compulsory French/Dutch in Flemish/Walloon schools?
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Old May 6th, 2010, 11:24 PM   #3099
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The large majority of Arabic or Berber speaking people in Brussels have the Belgian nationality.
And what's your source for that? Belgium does not conduct censuses anymore and doesn't collect information on languages and places of birth anymore. They only collect information on citizenship (statistics tell you how many people have Belgian, French, Moroccan, Congolese, etc. citizenship, but they don't tell you how many people are speakers of this or that language, or how many people where born in which country) So your statement is impossible to prove.

Common knowledge is the people who get the Belgian citizenship are the children of immigrants, and the children of immigrants living in Brussels integrate in the French-speaking community (i.e. they adopt French as their language). 3rd generation immigrants usually don't speak the native language of their grandparents anymore.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 11:32 PM   #3100
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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
I've been trying to find the newspaper article reporting that incident, but I couldn't locate it. The incident happened about a year ago (or maybe 2 years ago, time flies!). From what I remember, there wasn't just one employee in that local train station, there were several employees who had been despatched there to deal with the people leaving the train. After these employees refused to talk in French, the clients started to rebel and create havoc, so finally some employees broke the rule and answered back in French. Since I can't find the article, I have no link to give you unfortunately, but you can't deny that such things happen in Belgium.

For example take the story of Nadine (and this time I have a link). Nadine is a 35 y/o policewoman who is a native French speaker but she also speaks Dutch fluently. Nadine lives in Flanders (maybe she's one of these Bruxellois who's moved to the suburbs of Brussels in Flanders). In June 2008 she took the train from Brussels to Aalst (a Flemish town located 24 km from Brussels), as she often does. On arriving in Aalst, her cell phone rang, it was her husband. While leaving the train and walking on the platform, she chitchatted with her husband on the phone in French. Suddenly a guy walked by her and shouted at her: "Hier moet je nederlands spreken !" (which means "Here you must speak Dutch!"). Nadine was of course shocked, and she replied angrily to the guy in Dutch.

Nadine also told the journalist that a colleague of her who is a native Dutch speaker was one day in a train, talking to a friend on her cell phone in French, and two passengers around her who couldn't stand the fact that she was speaking French made some remarks. The colleague was of course outraged.

Link: http://www.dhnet.be/infos/faits-dive...s-spreken.html
Why are you always digging up these kind of stories like it's common practice in Flanders? These are exeptions, believe me (if they are even true). You live in France, and you get all your "information" by the Francophone media, I live in Flanders so I think I'm better placed to really know the reality in Flanders today.

I once was in the hospital in Blankenberge (Flemish coast). I saw a group of Walloon tourists who were helped in perfect French by the Flemish staff. Even in Gasthuisberg, the hospital of Leuven, French-speaking patients are welcomed and treated in their own language. I don't see this happen for Flemish patients in hospitals in Liège or Charleroi!

There are also stories of Flemish people in Brussels hospitals, confronted with staff who don't speak a single word of Dutch. In your "bilingual" Brussels!

You always want to give the impression that the Flemish people are 'the bad ones' and that the Francophones are the 'poor victimes'. The reality is different, véry different.

The Francophone media sometimes makes up these anti-Flemish stories.
A recent example: last year the Francophone newspaper "La Dernière Heure" came up with this cover: "Girl got stabbed 38 times for speaking French in Flanders!". A few weeks later it was clear the whole story was FAKE. This is the kind of "media" we deal with in francophone Belgium.

The cover:
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