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Old July 6th, 2011, 08:26 PM   #4601
Verso
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How can rivers have different deepest points throughout the year? I can only imagine the middle of a river changing. Anyway, if Namibia (or Zimbabwe) can be against a bridge between Botswana and Zambia, it can also be against ferries when the Zambezi river floods. Or even better, they should make a bridge with an intersection in the middle, from where you could go to all four countries. :)
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Old July 6th, 2011, 08:56 PM   #4602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScraperDude View Post
Here is a bit of a dated story I found tonight while studying the Estcourt, Maine/ Estcourt, Quebec area where the US/Canada border cuts through numerous houses and leaves a few homes strictly in the US but only accessible via Canada. http://www.seacoastonline.com/articl...cid=sitesearch

As much as I go into Canada I find the border more of a unnecessary stop more than protecting the U.S.
This one, and the Os de Civis thing are two examples of a pene-enclave (word which makes me laugh because "pene" means ***** in Spanish), that is, a place which is connected to the rest of the territory, but only can be reached by crossing another territory.

I'm seeing another pene-enclave on my Italian road atlas: Bagni di Craveggia, located in VB province in Italy but only accessible via Switzerland.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 10:16 PM   #4603
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This Austrian valley and the nearby Jungholz (a few km to the north east). Samnaun in Switzerland until 1960 or so was in a similar situation.

Another curiosity is the "custom route" leading to the Euroairport.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 11:18 PM   #4604
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This other Austrian valley, too
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Old July 7th, 2011, 01:27 AM   #4605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
This Austrian valley and the nearby Jungholz (a few km to the north east). Samnaun in Switzerland until 1960 or so was in a similar situation.

Another curiosity is the "custom route" leading to the Euroairport.


Is this road still on use or today it is not neccessarry to cross customs so then it is possible to go from only one road and terminal?
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Old July 7th, 2011, 01:57 AM   #4606
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Another "international airport": Gibraltar.


http://maps.google.es/maps?q=gibralt...43066&t=h&z=15


If you look for it at Google Earth you will notice that border is pointed in red instead of yellow.

This is because after a 19th century treaty, there is a British colony but also a neutral zone between colony and the rest of Spain.

Airport, stadium and some houses are in the neutral zone. So then the airport was built on a shared area.

As you can see, there are no too many land to built an airport, so... more than half of it is over the see, as well as main road to access Gibraltar crosses the airport (there is a traffic light to get in red if a plane is going to land or depart.

After a new treaty some years ago, terminal was built again to allow flights "inside Spain". This is, a passenger departing anywhere from Spain, fligthing to Gibraltar, landing there but going through Spain (town of La Linea) will no pass any custom control (if going to Gibraltar will pass both Spanish and British controls).

A plane of the company Iberia started a daily flight from Madrid, taken a bit more than one hour.

Nowadays I think only a British Airways plane arriving from Heathrow lands there. B.A. had more destinations but have been cancelled on these years.

Iberia flight has been cancelled too. There are some other airports on the area and that flight was used only by citizens of a very concrete area. Railway was updated two years ago and today, a direct train to that bay takes 5:10 and only 4:00 to somewhere in the north of that area... Twice per day, cheaper than plane and usually no need to ask a taxi or other way to go home.


Ops... a little detail... nowadays, British airways and Iberia are... the same entreprise (different logo and names but same entreprise...)
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Old July 7th, 2011, 09:01 AM   #4607
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I guess your signature has something to do with this?
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Old July 7th, 2011, 09:58 AM   #4608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
This other Austrian valley, too
And then there is Büsingen am Hochrhein, has anyone been through there?
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Old July 7th, 2011, 10:40 AM   #4609
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That is an exclave proper, not a pene-exclave.
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Old July 7th, 2011, 11:14 AM   #4610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I guess your signature has something to do with this?


Absolute nothing.

They are some declarations made by Huesca bishop about some important art pieces are on another museum.

They are property of church, after more than 10 years of Vatican sentences giving always reason to back return of those goods... they still keep as in the beginning and nothing has been done.

The most nearest threath is this one
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...75387&page=106

Those declarations can be read on this news from March 2011 (it is the first paragraph after news)
http://www.heraldo.es/noticias/huesc..._berbegal.html




P.S.
Free translation of my signature to English will be
"We do not claim anything other than our own, we understand that some claim is a just claim and ordered that the property can return to their rightful owners"

but original one in Spanish is
"No reclamamos nada que no sea nuestro, reclamamos algo que entendemos que es una justa reivindicación y pedimos que esos bienes puedan volver a sus legítimos propietarios"


"bienes" means "goods", no reference about territory.






off-topic end
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Last edited by alserrod; July 7th, 2011 at 11:24 AM.
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Old July 7th, 2011, 11:50 AM   #4611
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I was just joking, no offence intended.
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Old July 7th, 2011, 04:40 PM   #4612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I was just joking, no offence intended.


Do not worry... I justed give further information apart to explain the "why" of my signature.

PS. In some Spanish forum I had to explain it too...
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Old July 7th, 2011, 08:16 PM   #4613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
That is an exclave proper, not a pene-exclave.
Yea, I know
I was on a major exclave kick last night on google earth while I had SSC up.
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Old July 7th, 2011, 10:57 PM   #4614
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Another similar case: http://maps.google.ch/?ll=46.481935,...01929&t=h&z=16

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Is this road still on use or today it is not neccessarry to cross customs so then it is possible to go from only one road and terminal?
I don't know if this road today is connected to others in France, but certainly it is still used (as example, for a busline from Basel).
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Old July 8th, 2011, 01:10 AM   #4615
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Can anyone show some photos or information about Geneve airport and free road from France?
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Old July 8th, 2011, 01:58 AM   #4616
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Another curious border. A Spanish enclave at France, just only 1,6 km away from border.

The situation comes since 1660 when after a Treaty some borders of France where moved and enlarged.
In the case of Spain there was a translation problem... It was accorded to pass to France all "pueblos and lugares" (villages and very little villages) located in some valleys at Pyrenees.
But... there was one town that argued they were not a "pueblo" instead they were a "villa". It was a royal designation with some privileges... and the argued always that only "pueblos" will change to France, but not "villa".

Villa is not translated as "ville" to French (it would be ciudad / city, or something like that). In fact... I think that this word... just has not any translation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_the_Pyrenees



So then, the town of Llivia kept as Spanish territory and it was agreed that there will be free way with no disruptions to go to Llivia.

Centuries passes, and political situation too... but the treaty keeps going on...
This became to mean that at Spanish customs all people could be requested about documentation and baggage but at French customs all citizen had right to have no control. This is... Spanish custom control could be considered as an internal control and French was not allowed to stop any car in that road.

In this photo you can see the 1,6 km that separates Puigcerda from Llivia.





First "cross" on France was solved with a bridge. It is in French territory, it was payed fifty-fifty between France and Spain.
This bridge gave possibility to avoid a national French road after customs as well as cross over railway. Later, later, a connection between both roads was built, but in the begining it was prepared to have just traffic absolute separated (French traffic on national road could not go to border as well as "free duty traffic" to Llivia could not get that road)






The only cross with a French road was here



(note that yellow lines appear on the top and bottom of the photo indicating borders)


Because Spanish citizens going to Llivia could not be stopped at border because the treaty, French police decided to give free way to all Spanish cars (looking at car number plate) but... if in that cross they turned right or left they will be stopped and requested all documentation as a normal border control.

Problem became when traffic increased... and signals appeared on road.

At 17th, 18th, 19th... century, no problems with cars... but in the middle of 20th century, it was absolute normal to put a Stop on crossed.

Road to Llivia had a Stop in both directions (just where now there is a round-about) and Llivia citizens used to destroy it.
Why?. They consider they had free transit with no disruption to Puigcerda... and from their point of view, a Stop signal was a disruption.

Problem was only solved when roundabout was made. Signal of "Give way" for everyone and any car inside of the roundabout has priority (event can be a car that it is turning back...).




Just 0,5km away from roundabout Spain (Llivia territory) comes again.
There is no signal of a new international cross. Here you have a picture. Block near the word "D68" signals exactly the point, as well as we can see a different asphalt and lines on road (continues or discontinues).




Some curiosities more...

French national road N116 from Perpignan to Andorra crossed just, just touching Llivia territory.

Today, at Puigcerda there is an "international" hospital where citizens from both countries come be attended.
There are just some legal reasons to have the same "service" with French or Spanish citizens. For example, if a French kid is born there, he will be consider as born abroad and has to be register on French consulate at Barcelona (event if it is only one km away from France and there is a treaty to use that hospital).


I started talking about towns statements.
In the 17th century Madrid had (and still HAS) the statement of (villa y corte).
Villa does not mean "city" (yes, really... Spanish capital has not the royal statement of city). "Corte" is given only to some towns where kings used to have its residence (mainly Madrid but some towns not far away).


The city where I live, for example has the statement of...

Very noble, very loyal, very heroic, very beneficial, always heroic and Immortal city of Zaragoza.



Reasons of statements and translations made an enclave very curious!!!!!!!!!
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Old July 8th, 2011, 08:41 AM   #4617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
How can rivers have different deepest points throughout the year? I can only imagine the middle of a river changing.
They cannot. Usually, there is a some mechanism for the countries to agree where the border lies.

For instance, Finland and Sweden have 400+ kilometres of border running in the riverbed. The deepest points are located every 25th year, and the border is updated accordingly. In practice, a few inhabited islands may move from one country to another. In between there actions, the border does not move.
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Old July 8th, 2011, 10:23 AM   #4618
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There's a 20 years old debate between Slovakia and Hungary about the river Danube and the border. Basically the border of the states was declared as being in the deepest line of the river. However the Czechoslovak state moved the Danube to a very new bed in a length of 40 km, towards Czechoslovak (now: Slovak) territory in 1992, while the border remained at its original place, in the (empty) riverbed.
Later on Slovakia accepted of letting some water in the original riverbed as well so that it is no longer dry and the mutual border is defined as the median line of the original flow of Danube.
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Old July 8th, 2011, 12:48 PM   #4619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
They cannot. Usually, there is a some mechanism for the countries to agree where the border lies.

For instance, Finland and Sweden have 400+ kilometres of border running in the riverbed. The deepest points are located every 25th year, and the border is updated accordingly. In practice, a few inhabited islands may move from one country to another. In between there actions, the border does not move.



Pictures are taken from a blog with too many interesting information. It is written in Spanish but if anyone wants to enter there and use translator...


Island of Market is located between Sweden and Finland...



and they check also borders every 25th years.

They found some changes which made the phare been in Sweden. And they wanted to keep the phare in Finland but do not change the border on the coast (this is because changing just one meter on the coast, they change a lot of square kilometres of see and rights for fishing...).

The solution in this little island was to have a border like this:




And.... the Swedish part is from two different departments!!!!!
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Old July 8th, 2011, 04:27 PM   #4620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
There's a 20 years old debate between Slovakia and Hungary about the river Danube and the border. Basically the border of the states was declared as being in the deepest line of the river. However the Czechoslovak state moved the Danube to a very new bed in a length of 40 km, towards Czechoslovak (now: Slovak) territory in 1992, while the border remained at its original place, in the (empty) riverbed.
Later on Slovakia accepted of letting some water in the original riverbed as well so that it is no longer dry and the mutual border is defined as the median line of the original flow of Danube.
If borders are supposed to be updated regularly, then why does the Hungarian-Croatian border still follow the old flow of Drava and Mura? Same with the Slovenian-Croatian border; Slovenia wants border on Mura and Sotla, while Croatia doesn't.
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