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Old July 19th, 2011, 05:42 PM   #4741
g.spinoza
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Originally Posted by gorefest View Post
how are the things in the south and the attitude from the italians who are living in that zone ? because I have some some very good serbian friends moved ( not in south Tirol ) .. in north ... in Telfs and they were telling me that even today when the borders are open and movement is freer than ever , thet still suffer from the fact that South Tirol is not austrian on papers and on the geographic map .
I'm Italian, not from South Tyrol though. Some of the German speakers in Tyrol want to go to Austria, but many more do not. South Tyrol now experiences a degree of economic and fiscal freedom that Austria will never grant. I'm personally quite against this self-rule, for many reasons:

1- people tend to forget that this self-rule was granted by Italy after a deadly series of bombings and terrorist attacks back in the '60s.
2- this is possibly the only territory in Europe, won after a war, which retained its original language and culture. Were it annexed by, say, France, now Herr Bauer would be Monsieur Cultivateur (check out Alsace and Lorraine).
3- it's not very nice to know that, for every 1000 euro of taxes, South Tyrolers enjoy 1200 euro back while a Lombard only 200.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:03 PM   #4742
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
3- it's not very nice to know that, for every 1000 euro of taxes, South Tyrolers enjoy 1200 euro back while a Lombard only 200.
That happens in every country or region. There are always net spenders and net receivers that make up the balance. This happens in the European Union as well.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:09 PM   #4743
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thanks for the explantions g.spinoza and ...Road_UK now i`ve understood a bit better now ... well for the sake of mankind hope there won`t be any riots again ...


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Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
This is the tripoint of Finland, Sweden, and Norway:

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Treriks.jpg[MG]

The tripoint is located in an unhabited area used mainly for hiking and reindeer husbandry. There is a walking path of 11 km from the tripoint to the closest road (21/E8 in Finland).

The interesting thing is that it was officially forbidden to walk around the tripoint until late 1995. There was an agreement between Norway and Finland as well as Norway and Sweden that pedestrians were allowed to cross the certain sections of the border. However, there was no such an agreement between Finland and Sweden, thus making it illegal to enter Sweden from Finland and vice versa. But entering Sweden from Finland via Norway was legal. Nobody obeyed that rule, and it was relieved in 1995. Currently, all the three countries belong the the Schengen area, and the whole problem has turned obsolete.

OMG !!!!! what a misserable little place in this nordic imensity for the 3 countries to meet .. hahaha.. i very interesting story about the crossing from Sweden to Findland `ve google it and found some more pics ..








Don`t know what is with this rock or what it writtes on it





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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:10 PM   #4744
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That happens in every country or region. There are always net spenders and net receivers that make up the balance. This happens in the European Union as well.
Correct. But usually net receivers are the most depressed areas, not the richest ones.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:17 PM   #4745
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Part of what is in Carinzia? Pontebba, Tyrol or Friuli?
We were talking about Pontebba. Part of it is in Carinzia Italiana. Just kidding, but this area is the only part of former Carinthia that isn't called Carinthia any more (quite understandable though). In Austria and Slovenia we still have Carinthia(s) (just one part of it is often included in Upper Carniola, but not always).
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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:23 PM   #4746
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I never heard of "Carinzia Italiana", that's why I asked in the first place. But I checked on the Wikipedia, you are right: Pontebba, Tarvisio and few other communes were included in the ancient Duchy of Carinthia.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:58 PM   #4747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorefest View Post
Don`t know what is with this rock or what it writtes on it
┼pningen av Nordkalottruta, 1993

Basically means "Opening of the Nordkalottruta/Artic Trail, 1993".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordkalottruta
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Old July 19th, 2011, 08:17 PM   #4748
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Ok , this is really scary but it is by far the tri point that i most want to visit ... is the tripoint Russia - Norway - Finland .... we start here at the side of the border of Norway and Russia









Finally there




and the Tripoint




the yellow stones marks the border of Russia you can not step further than those .... off to Siberia if you crose these ... just kidding




















and ...a short 4 minutes film on the journey to this tripoint




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Last edited by gorefest; July 19th, 2011 at 08:26 PM.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 09:46 PM   #4749
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This tripoint is already in this thread somewhere. Why do you need a special permit to enter the frontier zone? Do all three countries require it?
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Old July 19th, 2011, 10:15 PM   #4750
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well sorry to be honest there were too many posts i didn`t seen it all ... i assume my apollogies to those who posted before me about this ... as for what you said ... from what i`ve seen from the clips they guy posted , on finnish and norvegian side it wasn`t any problem to go ... but they could not film ... don`t kno why .... with russia of course we all know that you need visa to get into their side .... well i`ve seen on youtube that someone was either crazy either stupid enough to take a walk around the confinium .....


and the comment was ....
Quote:
To anyone getting any ideas. Today, crossing the border into Russia, however briefly, as done here, will result in a large fine (approx. US$1000) from Norwegian authorities. The border - in the middle of a marsh in the middle of nowhere - is observed with CCTV surveillance and watchtowers. One old but now closed crossing point (Skafferhullet) even has a sign on the border fence a couple of meters from the actual border stating: "Do not urinate towards Russia". Absurd but exciting border control.
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Last edited by gorefest; July 19th, 2011 at 10:27 PM.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 10:20 PM   #4751
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^ I agree, with Russia is always a problem, especially in the far north, near the strategic harbor of Murmansk.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 10:54 PM   #4752
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Strange there is no Soviet fence here - maybe one further inside russia?

Like this:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/140718
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Old July 20th, 2011, 12:03 AM   #4753
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^ Great fence .
Can you imagine, the Russian embassy in Bucharest (Soviet style building) has an electric fence ?? Hello, comrades, this is the 21th century!!
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Old July 20th, 2011, 01:14 AM   #4754
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It is not Berlin Wall... but similar (or strongest!!!)


Spain has two cities in the north of African continent. They are the only European Union parts on the African continent... apart of Reunion (France), Madeira (Portugal) and Canary (Spain), for expample.
But Ceuta and Melilla are inside the continent, not separated by any ocean... just some neutral metres.

And... being inside that country you are inside European Union... and all inmigrants know it.

Any ferry between any city of Maroc and any city of Southern Spain will be international with passport and custom controls... but any ferry between these two cities (Ceuta and Melilla) and southern Spain is considered as a domestic ferry... such Barcelona-Palma de Mallorca, for example, with no police control.

So then, entering there is a GREAT gate to anywhere in European Union... because after that border there are no controls until the last corner of Finland!!!!!

The pression of inmigrants is easy to imagine. There are a lot of people to try to get the European continent on little boats, crossing the sea, but... they can enter European Union just crossing a little border...


The restrictions made by Spanish police are according to that pression:



This photo is from Melilla. Two six metres walls with a lane between them to help movements of police and a road closed to the second wall. With stairs or similar is possible to cross the first one but will be difficult to cross the second one (distance between them is calculated to be as near as to be more difficult to cross the second one).



And.... anyway... borders are not closed, just "controlled".

This is the most used custom at Melilla



People with passport and Visa, if required are allowed to enter the city with no problem. There are too many controls but a lot of people enter everyday, as well as merchandises.

The issue of merchandises is very important in this way... Melilla needs Moroccan merchandises (most of goods cheapest than if being transported from southern Spain by ferry) and Morocco needs Melilla because is an important market where they can sell a lot of goods and... a little more expensive

There are people who are allowed to enter everyday, allowed to work but not residence. This is... every evening... back home.

There are pregnant women who enters legally to stay all the day because if the baby is born there... they can say he/she was born in Spain (he/she will have Morocco nationality but nobody knows if in future there will be a law about people who was born inside European Union even if different nationality... and those are born inside Spain...)

On the other hand, Morocco doesn't require passport for movements about 100 km for Melilla and Ceuta residents.
This was explained by a mate at work who was born there and his family keeps there.
When Spanish cars had different plates depending of the province, the Morocco police allowed only Identity card (not the passport) if CE or ML appeared on the plate. Now they allow in any case (it is impossible to see where it comes the car by the plate) but they can ask you the documentation. If you are resident in those cities and have only the Id. card, no problem. In any other case, needed the passport.
And... only 100 km around. My mate said once he got in a Morocco prison because more than 100 km and no passport.
For the rest of Spanish citizens and all European Union citizens, there are no restriction to entry but... passport required!!.


In Spain, citizens from Canary islands, Ceuta, Melilla and Balearic Islands have 50% discount on planes and ferries for domestic travels (not international, where they pay full fare).

My mate said me he had been to Melilla with the 50% discount for a lot of years. Melilla airport is 5 km away from city centre (and just, just in the border).

But... since some years ago... he flies to Nador airport with Ryanair. There is no discount, but Madrid-Melilla with Iberia and 50% discount is much more expensive than a Madrid-Nador with Ryanair. The airport is now 35 km away. He requires his parents to go there and has to cross twice the border (arrives to Moroccan airport, custom controls, 30 km... and Spanish border again).
Just 30 km away... but a nice "secondary airport" for this city.


Similar to the case of Ceuta. Just 14 km from Europe but it is very difficult to put an airport. There is only a place for helicopters, but expensive. People use ferry to Algeciras where there are high speed trains to Madrid, or shuttle to another city on the south.

But... Tanger airport, at Morocco, is not very far away... and citizens and... Ryanair have discovered that can be used by passengers. There is also a Madrid-Tanger with this company.




Very curious...
A wall as controlled as the Berlin wall, but facilities for controlled border crosses in both directions.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 02:22 AM   #4755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post

3- it's not very nice to know that, for every 1000 euro of taxes, South Tyrolers enjoy 1200 euro back while a Lombard only 200.
There is a lot to say for that. South Tirol has its special status, but a lot of Southern Italians are benefiting from that. That started when Mussolini moved a lot of southerners to the north, and northerners to the south in an attempt to crack down on the German language in South Tirol. Even though in the northern area of South Tirol, lets say from Brenner to Sterzing and all the side valleys are all mainly German speaking, in the capital Bozen Italian is becoming more and more the primary language. This also due to the many immigrants from the south, who are now enjoying a flexible tax system. It will always stay like that, in order to avoid Basque situations. German speakers are already making a fuss about whether footpath signs in the Zillertaler Alps on the Italian side should display Italian as well, or German only. It seems that even the Government in Rome are getting involved in these pointless yet heated discussions. (I live on the Austrian side of the Zillertaler alpes, and the signs look exactly the same as on the Italian side, a good two hour walk, but a lot of the names in Italian are crossed out. It really doesn't take a lot to create a shitstorm around here on both sides of the border)
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Old July 20th, 2011, 05:53 AM   #4756
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This tripoint is already in this thread somewhere. Why do you need a special permit to enter the frontier zone? Do all three countries require it?
There is a frontier zone at the Finland-Russia frontier on the Finnish side. Finland was enforced to establish it at the Treaty of Paris (1947) after being on the losing side in the WW II. The default width is 3 km on the land and 4 km on the sea. Currently, the zone is rather narrow in many places, and most of the funny rules have been relieved. (For example, the Treaty of Paris forbids Finland to illuminate the area of Soviet Union. Earlier, there were traffic signs to ban using high beams in the cars on the roads close to the frontier if there was a risk that the light would reach the frontier.)

Nowadays, the initial concept of frontier zone is turned obsolete, but Finland wants to keep it, because it helps controlling the frontier. The zone is marked very clearly, and the access is strictly (but invisibly) controlled.

Earlier, the Finland-Norway-Russia tripoint could be approached from Norway only, because the frontier zone extended to the Finnish-Norwegian frontier:



(Frontier zone marked as a shaded area.)

Currently, there is a narrow gap between the frontier zone and the Finnish-Norwegian border making it possible to enter the tripoint in Finland, too.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 09:45 AM   #4757
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(Frontier zone marked as a shaded area.)
thanks for the informations ...any idea where the checkpoints are ? found one on maps on google ... maaaaaaan you gotta love those russians and how they makes understeand that the Iron Curtain is not really gone as you think and that kidding of course .. I have a very big respect for russians , their nation , their country and culture , but still when it comes to borders they really frightens me


same panels on the Raja-Jooseppi checkpoint .... it seems to be standard marks for finnish people when it comes to russian border





and one taken from the russian side ...



and the same marks near the Syuvyaoro checkpoint



and some really interesting pictures .... not far away from the street crossing , is the cross border point for timber tracks only ....




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Last edited by gorefest; July 20th, 2011 at 10:13 AM.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 10:44 AM   #4758
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thanks for the informations ...any idea where the checkpoints are ? found one on maps on google ...
There are eight permanent checkpoints for road traffic between Finland and Russia (from south to north):

- Vaalimaa (road 7/E18)
- Nuijamaa (13)
- Imatra (62)
- Niirala (9, ex 70)
- Vartius (89)
- Kuusamo (866)
- Salla (82)
- Raja-Jooseppi (91)

In addition, there are a few temporary ones, mainly for timber transport.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 11:16 AM   #4759
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are there any Quadra-points ?
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Old July 20th, 2011, 11:20 AM   #4760
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
This also due to the many immigrants from the south, who are now enjoying a flexible tax system. It will always stay like that, in order to avoid Basque situations. German speakers are already making a fuss about whether footpath signs in the Zillertaler Alps on the Italian side should display Italian as well, or German only.

Just a remark... Spain has 17 autonomous regions (and 2 autonomous cities: Ceuta and Melilla).
All the 17 regions have their own parliament, self laws, competences, etc.. in some (or a lot of...) areas. There are not two exact systems and Basque could be the most advanced in that way... but there are 16 more.
Health personnnel and hospitals, education, most of roads... are managed by regions instead of central government.
And the region can have, of course, a government and parliament "with a different colour" comparated with the Spanish government (different interestes, different priorities... or just different policy).
Basque region was the first one to be made in the last 70s (but in three years all of them where made).

Some of them have a second official language (or a third one... because in one corner of Catalonia there is a third official one)... but having it or not, the autonomous situation is the same.

Maybe the case with more differences is the environmental. Each region has different laws, and sometimes police who is moved city to city has to study the regional law to know which is a delit and which is allowed everywhere (every region makes the laws depending of the characteristics of its territory but must be known for people who moves and applies them)
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