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Old July 20th, 2011, 11:38 AM   #4761
g.spinoza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
There is a lot to say for that. South Tirol has its special status, but a lot of Southern Italians are benefiting from that. That started when Mussolini moved a lot of southerners to the north, and northerners to the south in an attempt to crack down on the German language in South Tirol.
It's not really like that.
South Tyrol resources are allocated separately for Italian and German speakers, on a provincial basis. So, since 70% of the population is German-speaking and 30% Italian-speaking, resources are allocated accordingly. But this is done, as I said, on a provincial basis: so in Bolzano/Bozen, where percentages are reversed (70% of Italian speakers), resources are allocated as in the rest of the province, favouring German speakers even more. This is intolerable, more considering, as I mentioned, that this agreement was reached using bombs and murders.

It's apartheid, born with violence.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 04:55 PM   #4762
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This is what's Schengen all about:

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Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
My video of driving around Nova Gorica:

map: http://maps.google.si/maps?saddr=Erj...via=1,2,3&z=12

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Old July 20th, 2011, 06:45 PM   #4763
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Thanks a lot for the explanation, MattiG. Only now I noticed the yellow-shaded area on the Finnish sign. I didn't notice it before because of that (yellow) arrow pointing at the tripoint, so I thought you needed a special permit also for the tripoint itself (and yellow is similar to white anyway). Does anyone know, if the tripoint may be accessed from Russia?
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Old July 20th, 2011, 08:57 PM   #4764
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Also, why may the Russian-Norwegian border only be crossed for business? That's quite boring. Was that Russia's or Norway's idea (or both)?
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Old July 20th, 2011, 09:38 PM   #4765
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Don't think so. You need a visa and car-insurance. But if those are aquired you can drive right over.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 10:11 PM   #4766
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
It's not really like that.
South Tyrol resources are allocated separately for Italian and German speakers, on a provincial basis. So, since 70% of the population is German-speaking and 30% Italian-speaking, resources are allocated accordingly. But this is done, as I said, on a provincial basis: so in Bolzano/Bozen, where percentages are reversed (70% of Italian speakers), resources are allocated as in the rest of the province, favouring German speakers even more. This is intolerable, more considering, as I mentioned, that this agreement was reached using bombs and murders.

It's apartheid, born with violence.
I dislike any form of ethnic separation. And I think this is the most important lack of South Tyrolian political system. Both groups better should mix and assimilate each other.
I agree with you that there cannot be any sympathy with terrorists. It's a fact that Italian Carabinieri were killed during 1960s in South Tyrol. They did nothing but their job. It was not their free decision to do their job in South Tyrol. It was the decision of politicians in Rome.
But I disagree that the agreement was a result of terror of the "Bumser". It was an obligation of western allies in 1945 because Italy lost the war.
South Tyrol remained part of Italy against willing of South Tyrolian people but Italy had to grant autonomy.
So be happy and don't say anything against this solution ("apartheid"). Alternative would be a referendum like it was suggested by Francesco Cossiga.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 10:25 PM   #4767
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Does anyone know, if the tripoint may be accessed from Russia?
Very unlikely. Russians want to keep a tight frontier control and any that sort of activities are not usually supported. Official checkpoints are to be used. In addition, there is the wide and strong river Paatsjoki between the tripoint and the road on the Russian side, making the access somewhat challenging. And Russia treats the area strategic because of the nickel mines nearby.

BTW, three time zones meet at the tripoint.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 10:49 PM   #4768
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But I disagree that the agreement was a result of terror of the "Bumser". It was an obligation of western allies in 1945 because Italy lost the war.
No no, get the fact straight. Italy had already granted in 1948 a whole set of concessions and autonomy to Region Trentino-Alto Adige (which at the time was considered as one and inhabited by Italian-speaking majority). We had already complied with Allies's obligations.
But South Tyrolers weren't happy with that, they wanted more and went terrorist. Of course it was not the will of the majority of South Tyrolers, but they succeeded: in 1972 Italian government granted them the autonomy they enjoy today, mostly because of the terrorism.

Quote:
South Tyrol remained part of Italy against willing of South Tyrolian people but Italy had to grant autonomy.
So? Was Istria happy with Yugoslav rule? They now have autonomy but it's just a façade, (almost) no Italian speakers remained there. Italians were just expelled, killed or assimilated, and nobody in Europe moved a finger. We let the German speakers live well even if they killed our people, and we're the bad guys. Come on.

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So be happy and don't say anything against this solution ("apartheid"). Alternative would be a referendum like it was suggested by Francesco Cossiga.
I will be more than happy to let them go. Almost nobody in Italy consider them Italians, and financially they are just a burden. But if they do secede, they will have to leave Bolzano behind, 'coz it is majority of Italian speakers.

EDIT: Just to add a bit of references, it wasn't me who invented the term "apartheid" for South Tyrol's situation: one of the most important italian journalists, Sergio Romano, on "Il Corriere della sera" in 2005, and also "Der Spiegel" in 1988

Last edited by g.spinoza; July 20th, 2011 at 11:21 PM.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 11:42 PM   #4769
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
So? Was Istria happy with Yugoslav rule? They now have autonomy but it's just a façade, (almost) no Italian speakers remained there. Italians were just expelled, killed or assimilated, and nobody in Europe moved a finger.
They've been assimilated, because they live on the coast, which is strategic for every country. They wouldn't be assimilated, if they lived in the interior. But I'm not aware of mass killings and/or deportations of Italians from the coast, except for fascists (some of whom may have been misdefined by Yugoslavia ).
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Old July 20th, 2011, 11:53 PM   #4770
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They've been assimilated, because they live on the coast, which is strategic for every country. They wouldn't be assimilated, if they lived in the interior. But I'm not aware of mass killings and/or deportations of Italians from the coast, except for fascists (some of whom may have been misdefined by Yugoslavia ).
I don't want too much to enter into this matter, but it is a fact that, after the division of Free Territory of Trieste into Zone A and B, and after the assignment of Zone B to Yugoslavia, the vast majority of Italians there were forced to go away. There weren't killings in that period, I apologize for having confused facts of 10 years before. I just took Istria as an example of cultural assimilation, but there were many others in Europe, against Italians (Corsica, Nizza, Malta) or against other populations (Germany-Poland after WWII, for instance). But to my knowledge, Alto Adige-Südtirol is the only territory which retained its original culture and were not assimilated.

I'm evil and I say: we're talking about this just because we tried assimilation and didn't succeed.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 11:59 PM   #4771
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Ah, "Italian Carinthia". Why isn't that sign in Italian? Is there also a sign in Slovenian? Btw, is that A23 in the back?
Yes, 7% of Carinthia fell to Italy in 1920.
It should also be in Italian on one side, it is not also in Slovenian, I guess because at the time Carinthia was German-dominated, unlike Carniola, where Slovenian was widely used.
If you read carefully on the other side it says "Kronland Venedig", that means the stone was placed there when Venetia was still a land of the Austrian Empire, so it was Austria on both sides, Carinthia on one side, Venetian on the other. In 1866 the border became a border between different countries, i.e Austrian Empire and Italy.
But it was already so, until 1797, between dominions of the House of Austria in the Holy Roman Empire and the Venetian Republic.

I don't know if it's A23, but i guess it is, can't remember exactly.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 12:15 AM   #4772
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
But to my knowledge, Alto Adige-Südtirol is the only territory which retained its original culture and were not assimilated.
And there is nothing wrong with that...what's wrong, are the injustices happened during centuries of wars in Europe, like the examples you cited.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 12:16 AM   #4773
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I'm Italian, not from South Tyrol though. Some of the German speakers in Tyrol want to go to Austria, but many more do not. South Tyrol now experiences a degree of economic and fiscal freedom that Austria will never grant. I'm personally quite against this self-rule, for many reasons:

1- people tend to forget that this self-rule was granted by Italy after a deadly series of bombings and terrorist attacks back in the '60s.
2- this is possibly the only territory in Europe, won after a war, which retained its original language and culture. Were it annexed by, say, France, now Herr Bauer would be Monsieur Cultivateur (check out Alsace and Lorraine).
3- it's not very nice to know that, for every 1000 euro of taxes, South Tyrolers enjoy 1200 euro back while a Lombard only 200.
1 - Inhabitants never killed voluntarily, and many scandals have been removed from public eye, but the international commmunity was aware that many Carabinieri were killed by persons, who later came out were personnel of Italian secret services, just to put a dark light on Germans of Tyrol.
2 - Conquered after WWI, after which the Italian regime did everyhting was possible to stop people speaking German. After WWII the inhabitants reacted, so Italy, which lost the war, had to slowly give up the idea.
3 - That's the price Italy has to pay to keep that territory under her sovereignity, its as simple as that. You don't pay anymore? Ok, goodbye Italy! That's a fact!

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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
They've been assimilated, because they live on the coast, which is strategic for every country. They wouldn't be assimilated, if they lived in the interior. But I'm not aware of mass killings and/or deportations of Italians from the coast, except for fascists (some of whom may have been misdefined by Yugoslavia ).
Dear Verso, don't waste your time, that's just Italian propaganda, which unfortunately is still going today in Italy on tv and newspapers. They completely ignore what they've done to Slovenes, Croats (and newly added Italians from Trieste too!) who fell under Italian sovereignity in the 20s and 30s, they removed from thei rmemories the fact that they invaded Yugolsavia in 1941, occupied Ljubljana with fire and violence, and all the rest.
From their point of view, it looks that poor Italians are so brave and innocent, and all the others are almost animals.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 12:28 AM   #4774
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But to my knowledge, Alto Adige-Südtirol is the only territory which retained its original culture and were not assimilated.
Negative. There's a 0.5 million Hungarian minority (~10% of total population) in Southern Slovakia and a 1.5 million one (~7%) in Romania (note that three Romanian regions have a vast Hungarian majority, far from the border, in the South-Eastern part of the Carpathian mountains).
These regions were granted to Slovakia (Czechoslovakia at that time) and Romania in the so called Trianon treaty in 1920, and then again in Paris treaty in 1947 (Hungary occupied them in the late 30's.
Of course some of them were assimilated (they had about the same population 90 years ago while Slovak/Romanian population had heavy growth) but the majority of ethnically Hungarian people remaind in original culture. I know some people that absolutely don't speak Romanian although they have been living in Romania for several decades.
Check this one (it's in Romanian but I suppose you can understand it, green is for Hungarian):
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi%C8%9...tnica_2002.PNG
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Old July 21st, 2011, 12:38 AM   #4775
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What about the german-speaking Belgians?
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Old July 21st, 2011, 12:53 AM   #4776
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What about them? Nothing changed for them. Same culture, same everything.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 01:24 AM   #4777
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This is what's Schengen all about:

Nice, nice video

One question.

Is it allowed now to go to train station from Italy or you should enter always from the Slovenian side?
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Old July 21st, 2011, 02:03 AM   #4778
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What about the german-speaking Belgians?
Funny you mention that. With all that rioting going on between the Flemish and French speakers, the German speakers seem to be the only group of content Belgians in Belgium. They love their King and country, and have no wish to become part of Germany. I read an article about them not long ago.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 03:31 AM   #4779
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it's all europe now, we shouldn't be too much into unsolved history, it will be never solved right.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 04:09 AM   #4780
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Don't think so. You need a visa and car-insurance. But if those are aquired you can drive right over.
Storskog/Boris Gleb (E105) border crossing:


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4932767 by kokodrilio

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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Nice, nice video

One question.

Is it allowed now to go to train station from Italy or you should enter always from the Slovenian side?
What do you mean? The Nova Gorica train station lies entirely in Slovenia, so you enter it "from the Slovenian side" in any case. Unless you mean, if you come from the west (Italy). Well, there're still a few meters between Italy and the train station (there's a road inbetween) and since we're both in Schengen, you can cross the border, of course (but not by car, only on foot, however you can park in Italy and go to Slovenia on foot, it's just a few meters).
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