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Old July 21st, 2011, 08:39 AM   #4781
MattiG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Storskog/Boris Gleb (E105) border crossing:
Those Norwegian translations... They have meant to write 'No Unathorized Entry' (to the checkpoint area).

A sign at Alta Camping: 'For domestic furniture only'. Meaning: 'For dish washing only'.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 10:10 AM   #4782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
What do you mean? The Nova Gorica train station lies entirely in Slovenia, so you enter it "from the Slovenian side" in any case. Unless you mean, if you come from the west (Italy). Well, there're still a few meters between Italy and the train station (there's a road inbetween) and since we're both in Schengen, you can cross the border, of course (but not by car, only on foot, however you can park in Italy and go to Slovenia on foot, it's just a few meters).
So... signals pointed that the square was allowed only to walk, not for border crossing have dissapeared?
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Old July 21st, 2011, 10:26 AM   #4783
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this is the natural tripoint from Ukraine - Moldova and Romania ....



The Moldavian border station at Criva is the starting-point of a path leading to the Moldovan-Romanian-Ukrainian tripoint.

( and here is the Ukrainian side




The route goes in this direction, along the Moldavian-Ukrainian border.



It passes Moldavian-Ukrainian border marker #3 ....



... a Ukrainian watchtower,




.. and Moldavian-Ukrainian border marker #2.



Next the path crosses a railway track,



.. border signs on trees, " Stai , frontiera de stat = Halt ! state fronteer (RO) "




.. and Moldavian-Ukrainian border marker #1.



A barbed-wire fence is the final obstacle before the border river Prut,



... where the wet tripoint is, halfway between the Moldavian-Ukrainian riverside and the corresponding Romanian territory on the opposite side of the river.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 11:53 AM   #4784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Trst View Post
1 - Inhabitants never killed voluntarily, and many scandals have been removed from public eye, but the international commmunity was aware that many Carabinieri were killed by persons, who later came out were personnel of Italian secret services, just to put a dark light on Germans of Tyrol.
Yes, sure. And we never been to the Moon, Area 51 contains aliens and Tom Cruise put a gerbil in his butt.

Quote:
2 - Conquered after WWI, after which the Italian regime did everyhting was possible to stop people speaking German. After WWII the inhabitants reacted, so Italy, which lost the war, had to slowly give up the idea.
False again. After WWI autonomies were mantained, as well as German schools and everything (December 1st, 1919). It is just after the Fascism came to power that things changed.

Quote:
3 - That's the price Italy has to pay to keep that territory under her sovereignity, its as simple as that. You don't pay anymore? Ok, goodbye Italy! That's a fact!
That would be ok to me. But Austrian don't want them, and if they were to be independent, they will succumb in a generation in this globalized world, without Rome giving them loads of money.

Quote:
Dear Verso, don't waste your time, that's just Italian propaganda, which unfortunately is still going today in Italy on tv and newspapers. They completely ignore what they've done to Slovenes, Croats (and newly added Italians from Trieste too!) who fell under Italian sovereignity in the 20s and 30s, they removed from thei rmemories the fact that they invaded Yugolsavia in 1941, occupied Ljubljana with fire and violence, and all the rest.
From their point of view, it looks that poor Italians are so brave and innocent, and all the others are almost animals.
Most stupid thing I ever read.
I never said that, and everybody knows that Italy fought on the bad side in WWII, occupied Yugoslavia and raped and killed. But we are not talking about that, that was a war. War is wrong, is dirty, such things happen.
We are talking about peacetime culture assimilation, which is a different thing.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 12:38 PM   #4785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Storskog/Boris Gleb (E105) border crossing:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4932767 by kokodrilio
I was quite set off by the sign myself when i was there. But tourists can cross.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 01:02 PM   #4786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
No no, get the fact straight. Italy had already granted in 1948 a whole set of concessions and autonomy to Region Trentino-Alto Adige (which at the time was considered as one and inhabited by Italian-speaking majority). We had already complied with Allies's obligations.
But South Tyrolers weren't happy with that, they wanted more and went terrorist. Of course it was not the will of the majority of South Tyrolers, but they succeeded: in 1972 Italian government granted them the autonomy they enjoy today, mostly because of the terrorism.
Well, if Italian government gave autonomy mainly because of terrorism than I ask why they didn't react earlier, before radicalization in South Tyrol.
The answer is that they hoped to assimilate next generation of South Tyrolians. And this strategy was wrong.
You wrote about Alsace-Lorraine. French assimilation-strategy succeeded because most Alsatians in their hearts felt French culture more modern than German one. They didn't plan to become French speaking. But they did more and more.
This was not possible in South Tyrol because Tyrolians see themselves better than Italians in nearly all points. There isn't any attractiveness in Italian way of life for them. Same problem was in Poland with German minority between WWI and WWII. If Silesians would have been allowed to stay after 1945 Poland would have got a very big problem at the latest in 1989.
So my thesis is that "peaceful" assimilation is only possible if a major part of minority accept majority culture as attractive. Otherwise only forced assimilation or forced moving is possible. Both are no solutions for democratic governments.
So what is your problem with South Tyrol? If I were Italian I would be proud of it.

Quote:
So? Was Istria happy with Yugoslav rule? They now have autonomy but it's just a fašade, (almost) no Italian speakers remained there. Italians were just expelled, killed or assimilated, and nobody in Europe moved a finger. We let the German speakers live well even if they killed our people, and we're the bad guys. Come on.
There is one big mistake in your argumentation. South Tyrolian cultural autonomy and bilingualism is not a present Italy gave to South Tyrolians. It is a duty of all democratic countries against autochthonous minorities.
I am surprised that you compare democratic Italy after WWII with communist Yugoslavia.
I've got respect for this solution you found for South Tyrol. It is taken as positive example all over Europe. But you are wrong if you think that South Tyrolians have to be thankful. And I am sad that you see a problem that they still are not "real" Italians and speak German better than Italian. They are loyal citizens of Italy. I see no problem in their different culture.
Only problem in my opinion is ethnic devision of society, especially in Bozen and Meran.
Why don't you see cultural enrichment South Tyrolians give to Italy?


Quote:
I will be more than happy to let them go. Almost nobody in Italy consider them Italians, and financially they are just a burden. But if they do secede, they will have to leave Bolzano behind, 'coz it is majority of Italian speakers.
I think leaving Italy is not a priority to most South Tyrolians. Most of them are ok with autonomy, open borders and so on. Positive result of EU by the way.
Problem is more at people like you with old-fashioned national understanding. But these times are over. Relict of those times is Italian speaking majority in Bozen as a result of fascist Italianization.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 02:56 PM   #4787
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I lost all interest in this discussion, so I'll be back on topic.

Triple point between Venezuela, Guyana and Brazil, on the top of Mt. Roraima:


(from wikipedia).

A curiosity: this tepui (highland) was conquered by man in 1884, and for its inaccessibilty it developed a unique fauna, different from that of the surrounding environment. This fact ignited the fantasy of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who then wrote "The lost world" about an expedition which finds prehistoric wildlife on top of an unexplored tepui.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 04:10 PM   #4788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
So... signals pointed that the square was allowed only to walk, not for border crossing have dissapeared?
Yes, probably. We're both in Schengen, after all. Crossing the border is only prohibited where there's some physical barrier (e.g. you aren't supposed to climb over a fence, whether it lies on the border or not, and there's still a lot of fence between Nova Gorica and Gorizia AFAIK).

http://maps.google.si/?ll=45.955323,...105.74,,0,2.81

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Those Norwegian translations... They have meant to write 'No Unathorized Entry' (to the checkpoint area).
But why not? How am I supposed to cross the border, if I'm not allowed to enter the border-crossing area? Unless they mean you shouldn't enter the area unless you have intention to cross the border. But I think I've also read elsewhere that the Norwegian-Russian border may only be crossed for business purposes.

Last edited by Verso; July 21st, 2011 at 04:25 PM.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 04:18 PM   #4789
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Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
I was quite set off by the sign myself when i was there. But tourists can cross.
Crap, I didn't notice this post. You were there and you crossed the border as a tourist? That's great. Where in Russia did you go? Nikel, Murmansk?
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Old July 21st, 2011, 05:00 PM   #4790
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The "P line".

While Spanish fascism government, in the 50s, after the WW II, army was worried because increasing security on borders with France. Something like if all Europe will be allied to attack Spain or similar.

It had no sense because there are too many coast kilometres to invade, very difficult to control and not easy to defend.

But the army made the "Linea P", which was hidden for a lot of year. It was not a "State secret" but you need authoritation to be near the border. Maybe someone who lived in the area knew about some local improvements in army defense... but they will never know they were all around the border. More or less 5-10 km away from the border.

They were some hundreds (not known exactly how many) of little bunkers) to be used for defense. They were pointed the north.

And... it is very strange because the border between France and Spain is mainly (not always but 95% of cases) the limit between rivers to Mediterranean and Atlantic, and takes sometimes peaks over 3000 metres.
If you have a look on a map, you can see central Pyrenees. Think that Bielsa tunnel was openned in the 70s... so from Portalet pass mountain until Val d'Aran there was no borders.
A great chain of peaks concatenated...

But Spanish army made these bunkers:




They were not used, just keeped for if needed to be used only (never needed of course).

Government never admited they had made an important investment in this defense line... but years passes and someone can enter on them if the wants.
There are some documents made about them but just in order of search.



And... as I said before, it was absolutely allowed to cross border. Foreing citizens could be enough with passport, depending of nationallity, and Spanish citizens... just needed the passport (Government made an internal document, still valid, only allowed inside the country and... instead of giving visas to exit the country... they give a passport)
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Old July 21st, 2011, 05:21 PM   #4791
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And... nothing related with roads (thanks a God... looking the place) but with borders.

Treserols is the third highest peak at Pyrenees, but maybe the most known.
Most of people will know it because the translation into French: Mont Perdu (or translation of translation into Spanish: Monte Perdido). This translation comes because it is not seen from France but "it is know there is a mountain".
This is, there are two French valleys that start in that mountain. It is not possible to see it (except from near the border) but it is obvious there is a high mountain closed there. That's why "Mont Perdu" (Lost Mountain in English).

It is also the biggest calcareous peak area in the world. It is very important for people who goes on mountains or just trekkings because as calcareous montains, there are no water fonts anywhere!!!.

In 1997 Unesco included "Monte Perdido - Pirineos" as World heritage and this includes the six valleys from this peak. Two of them in France and four of them in Spain. All of them are part of a Spanish or French national Park... but the six together with the mountain are an Unesco world heritage.


Some photos:



Western view from the peak. It is the Ordesa valley (mountains in the right are border to France)





The same photo but upside down (peak from Ordesa valley)





the "Great fall of Gavarnie" (river starts at this peak)



It is one out of the two valleys in France and... the first tourism hotel in the world (this is, used not for trips or business but for tourism stages) was built there.



The Pineta valley. The photo is taken very closed to the border. This valley is called the "green valley" (and if in Pyrenees something is remarked as green... it must be very green!!!!)




And finally... the "faster way" to go from Ordesa valley in Spain to Gavarnie valley in France:








As I said... thanks that it is related with borders but nothing with roads.




And a question. Is it the only Unesco human heritage located in two different countries at the same time?
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Old July 21st, 2011, 05:42 PM   #4792
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Nice rocks.




E75 in Norway (right after Finnish border): http://maps.google.si/?ll=69.913217,...40.71,,0,10.98

Take 2 steps forward and you'll see 3 different seasons (autumn/fall, spring or summer, and winter).
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Old July 21st, 2011, 07:34 PM   #4793
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Really

Spanish-French border at Bielsa-Aragnouet Tunnel, A-138 (Not a motorway ) and D173: http://maps.google.es/maps?ll=42.732...,8.51,,0,13.81
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Old July 21st, 2011, 08:00 PM   #4794
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Maybe it could be an off topic but considering that border crosses by the middle...


Pyrenees are between France and Spain (and Andorra in the middle). In most of cases are the mountains passes which make as border.

In the central Pyrenees at the French side there is the National Park of Pyrenees (where last week we could watch it at the Tour de France).

In the central Pyrenees at the Spanish side there are two different National Parks (Ordesa in the region of Aragon and Aiguestortes in the region of Catalonia) as well as other Natural parks (less laws about environment but... when you know them, they are as nice as the national ones).


But... in the 1990s it was proposed as Human herigate. Unesco said.. OK but we do not understand about borders!!! and the reason argued by Ordesa national park to be Human heritage should apply too for a part in the French side.

In 1997 in was included as Human Heritage... and this is my question about if it is the only Unesco H.H. that it is located in two countries. French side is not big in this case... but there is. In fact, the photo of the fall of Gavarnie is at France. The rest are in Spain. Looking to the main mountain, there is a very small lake in the left of the mountain. That's the begining of the river that falls at Gavarnie!!! (maybe located just 2 km from border).

In the thread about Spanish motorways someone asked about a route that will approach this point.

These pics can be useful, maybe, to organize a little trip there.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 09:07 PM   #4795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
it's all europe now, we shouldn't be too much into unsolved history, it will be never solved right.
I agree! However since it's all Europe now why not let these micro regions become their own states? Such as South Tyrol, Trieste, etc...... more border crossings NEW ones at that
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Old July 21st, 2011, 09:30 PM   #4796
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
and this is my question about if it is the only Unesco H.H. that it is located in two countries.
No, there're many: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ites_in_Europe (Europe only, there're more in the world).
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Old July 21st, 2011, 10:43 PM   #4797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
It's not really like that.
South Tyrol resources are allocated separately for Italian and German speakers, on a provincial basis. So, since 70% of the population is German-speaking and 30% Italian-speaking, resources are allocated accordingly. But this is done, as I said, on a provincial basis: so in Bolzano/Bozen, where percentages are reversed (70% of Italian speakers), resources are allocated as in the rest of the province, favouring German speakers even more. This is intolerable, more considering, as I mentioned, that this agreement was reached using bombs and murders.

It's apartheid, born with violence.
All of it started with Italians stealing the land, disregarding the will of the people there and then brutally oppressing the German-speakers in the fascist era. So cry me a river about those poor Sicilians in Bozen who came as occupiers.

Edit: An interesting fact, however, is that Hitler, that soab, even supported italianization of South Tyrol...

Last edited by rheintram; July 21st, 2011 at 10:53 PM.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 11:09 PM   #4798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
But why not? How am I supposed to cross the border, if I'm not allowed to enter the border-crossing area? Unless they mean you shouldn't enter the area unless you have intention to cross the border. But I think I've also read elsewhere that the Norwegian-Russian border may only be crossed for business purposes.
An inaccurate translation from Norwegian to English only. Do not draw false conclusions on it.
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 12:05 AM   #4799
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Quote:
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Crap, I didn't notice this post. You were there and you crossed the border as a tourist? That's great. Where in Russia did you go? Nikel, Murmansk?
I didn't bother with it since i had an ambitious travel-plan couldn't cross without acquiring a visa from the consulate in Kirkenes. It would take a full day wait (maybe) and it would cost too much money aswell as car insurance. I have a wish of going back there and going trough with it someday. I have crossed to Russia at train (Vainikkala) tough...


http://www.panoramio.com/photo/23187251
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 01:15 AM   #4800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
Really

Spanish-French border at Bielsa-Aragnouet Tunnel, A-138 (Not a motorway ) and D173: http://maps.google.es/maps?ll=42.732...,8.51,,0,13.81
^nice valley outside.
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