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Old August 14th, 2011, 07:30 PM   #4921
italystf
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Originally Posted by Fabri88 View Post
If the trouble are foreign drivers it would be good a law that oblige foreign people to show an airline ticket and/or a train ticket.
What about people going to NL by train or plane and rent a car there?
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Old August 14th, 2011, 07:31 PM   #4922
Falusi
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Ohh... I'm currently stucking in the 1 km+ queue of Horgos - Röszke border crossing (serbia - hungary)
Waiting time was 3 hours 40 minutes......
If you can try to avoid this crossing on weekends!
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Old August 14th, 2011, 08:16 PM   #4923
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Originally Posted by Daviedoff View Post

2. Driving France into Belgium at Callicanes (between Steenvoorde and Poperinge):
This is an interesting border crossing. I used it many times. You never quite know where the border is. The road signs and lay-out turns French, but it's not quite the border. There are still some lost Belgian signs, and streets with Flemish names on the side, even though you're on a French road. There are even Belgian tobacco shops alongside the French road. The road straddles in and out of Belgium/France, but all the signs remain French. This lasts for a few miles. Once you fully enter France, you get the European sign, together with the speed limits and the welcome sign.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 10:40 PM   #4924
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I think it's a matter of implementation. If you require someone to live somewhere for 5 years before they become eligible to become members of the club, then yes, that certainly sounds like discrimination. However, if all you do is require residency - say in the form of a tenancy agreement or property ownership - then it doesn't seem to me to be discriminatory. There doesn't seem to be any valid reason justifying a 5 year waiting period, so such a waiting period would indeed probably be discriminatory - but what makes you think there would be one?

(Your example of being able to buy land only if you're already a landowner is somewhat disingenuous, as of course this is how you gain residency, and so such a condition would be cyclical and obviously discriminatory.)


My example required someone to be a resident, not a landlord. Above that, it is really percieved and ruled out as discriminatory by the EU to require someone to be a resident of given country in order to buy a land in that EU country. The only thing you have to be is to be a resident of EU. Why? Because there is the free market priniciple. In the case of marihuana the principle would be clearly violated. That there is a another mess in Dutch law about legality and illegality of buying or selling marihuana is really another issue, that doesnt have to do with the free market principle. If it is legal, then it should be for everyone. If it is illegal, then for no one.

Only in the sector of social and health care there is exception to this and residency (or more precise, migrant worker status) can be requested as a conditon for a benefit. Also for example voting in local elections can be done only by local residents, irrespective of nationality.

There are also areas where indeed a "waiting" period is requested before you can apply to certain rights in the host country on which comparable citizen of that country has automatic right. E. g. check out the study grants.
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Old August 15th, 2011, 01:29 AM   #4925
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The problem apparently is that these "tourists" bring along a lot of trouble, and drive under influence, with car chases and crashes not being uncommon. It apparently also attracts drugs runners. It's even quoted that they don't like the additional traffic, because they all come by car.


People who wants to enjoy at any price and doesn't matter the problems they can cause to any citizen are anywhere in the world.

This week I watched on TV some images about one major of a coast town in Spain who decided to be very restrictive with pubs after a lot of troubles while all summer.

People who goes there leaves a lot of money as tourism... but if troubles are bigger than incomes... better to be quite and have different incomes.


Today it is very easy to get a plane return ticket on a low cost company and stay all the night anywhere in the saturday night. It is really easy... and if pubs are really cheaper than in your city... it could be interesting to have amusement anywhere thousand of kilometres from your home.

Since some years ago, some Spanish cities with low cost daily flights have notice a number of people who goes only for pubs while a saturday night. I watched on TV a program and reasons are very different... but people keeps flying for amusement.

No problems until here.
Problems become when you are absolute drunk and you start disturbing anyone or taking fights, or...

A lot of those "tourist" do not finish the night on pubs (and maybe they lose the return flight). They finish the night on the jail because disturbs.

When a foreing citizen is arrested, police has to advice the embassy and he has right to be visited by them.
It is made anywhere in the world in order to try that all citizens have the same rights. For these cases embassy will inform you about the laws that apply to you in that country and will give you a list of lawyers who can help you (and if they can, lawyers who speak your language). But they are not translators, they are not lawyers and they will not try that you will have a different treatment than other citizen of that country in the same situation.

After too many arrested people because alcohol drunk, one EU country decided to stablish "fares" for citizens arrested.

They decided that after an arrest, an embassy officer will visit always the arrested person, but if reason for arrest was some troubles due to alcohol ingestion or similar... the visit will have an official fare.

It was one country who had to contract some extra officers only for visits on jails to those people.

And problems started to dissapear slowly... but nowadays it is not the same problem than some years ago.
It was only one country who decided to put a fare for embassy officers visits to arrested people due to problems with alcohol... but in general, problems started to dissapear.




Talking about people who think that going to a sunny and hot country on holidays is like a licence to make what you want and talking about people who thinks that having a five hours flight and arriving anywhere in an African island is something like holidays in the jungle.... will require a new thread!!!!!
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Old August 15th, 2011, 02:04 AM   #4926
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Originally Posted by Surel View Post
My example required someone to be a resident, not a landlord. Above that, it is really percieved and ruled out as discriminatory by the EU to require someone to be a resident of given country in order to buy a land in that EU country. The only thing you have to be is to be a resident of EU. Why? Because there is the free market priniciple. In the case of marihuana the principle would be clearly violated. That there is a another mess in Dutch law about legality and illegality of buying or selling marihuana is really another issue, that doesnt have to do with the free market principle. If it is legal, then it should be for everyone. If it is illegal, then for no one.
Yes, precisely, the example you gave is not comparable to the situation we're discussing, because one way you can become a resident is by buying land/property. Therefore it is clearly discriminatory if you make residency a precondition for that, as it is a vicious cycle and so it obviously violates the principle of equality. This is clearly a very different situation compared to local club membership, and so your analogy is flawed.

What you're comparing is a fundamental right of EU citizens to reside anywhere in the union (the freedom of movement; it has nothing to do with the internal market!) with an issue of local significance. It is perfectly legitimate to limit membership of organisations to local residents; other examples of where this is sometimes done include public library membership and subsidised local public transport. Often, such services are financed by a local council, and members are restricted to those residing in that council's area. However, just like with the proposed solution with coffee shops, anyone can simply move into the local area and is then eligible to join. There is absolutely no discrimination here - you are not saying 'you can't join because you're French' or whatever; you're saying 'you can join if you live within 10 km of the premises'. This simply restricts access to tourists (including tourists from the same country who live far away), but not to residents. There is no basic principle requiring that visitors be treated in the same was as locals, and indeed this difference in treatment is very often seen. As a trivial example, locals might be entitled to free on-street parking whilst visitors are not. I think this is more similar to the kind of restrictions being imposed on coffee shops than a blanket ban on buying property that you're using by way of comparison!

I agree with you in that I don't think the ill-defined legal position on marijuana is really problematic when it comes to discrimination legislation; it's an entirely separate problem, although it may very well be beneficial to have it cleared up.


Quote:
Only in the sector of social and health care there is exception to this and residency (or more precise, migrant worker status) can be requested as a conditon for a benefit. Also for example voting in local elections can be done only by local residents, irrespective of nationality.

There are also areas where indeed a "waiting" period is requested before you can apply to certain rights in the host country on which comparable citizen of that country has automatic right. E. g. check out the study grants.
I think you're talking about residency in a country rather than residency in a local community. Indeed, some situations are explicitly residence-dependent in the treaties, and my first post on the topic touched upon study maintenance grants and how rules aren't always clear in that respect.

However, this has to do with state-wide residency and so is clearly different from applying a principle of locality, which is what I understood was proposed as a solution to the coffee shop problem. It would absolutely be discriminatory if the Netherlands allowed only permanent residents of the Netherlands access to coffee shops; however, 'permanent resident' status in the sense of the EU treaties (i.e. those having been self-sufficient for 5 years, with a couple of exceptions) is a rather different category from 'local residents'. You become a resident as soon as you move to a certain address with the intention to stay for over 3 months, although, as you say, you may face a waiting period for certain benefits in some countries. However, you're still immediately a resident and so should be able to gain access to any local service.

I think it's important to recognise that any solution would need to be considered very carefully to ensure that there is no inherent discriminatory practice in the way it is implemented. However, I disagree with what I understand to be your suggestion that any service anywhere in the EU has to be available without question to anyone anywhere in the Union. It is true that anyone should be able to provide a service (according to Article 61 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union), but it is not true that anyone should be able to be provided with a service.

To reiterate my point, a restriction to local residents is not discriminatory on grounds of nationality (Article 18) because all EU citizens have the right to reside anywhere in the Union (Article 21), provided this provision isn't being abused. The more local the restriction, the less likely it is to be discriminatory in the sense of Article 18, as a local restriction will by definition exclude a large proportion of "own" nationals; clearly, if you're excluding a large proportion of Dutch citizens, then you aren't being discriminatory on grounds of nationality to other EU citizens when you exclude a large proportion of them as well.
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Old August 15th, 2011, 11:36 AM   #4927
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
This is an interesting border crossing. I used it many times. You never quite know where the border is. (..).
I used this crossing some time ago (even posted a short report here) and must admit that it's quite confusing. As far as I remember you actually cross French-Belgain border 3 times.
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Old August 15th, 2011, 01:03 PM   #4928
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Originally Posted by GeertjeC View Post
Yes, precisely, the example you gave is not comparable to the situation we're discussing, because one way you can become a resident is by buying land/property. Therefore it is clearly discriminatory if you make residency a precondition for that, as it is a vicious cycle and so it obviously violates the principle of equality. This is clearly a very different situation compared to local club membership, and so your analogy is flawed.
Don´t wanna start a flame here. I will send you a pm.
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Old August 15th, 2011, 09:09 PM   #4929
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I wanna see the border between Europe and Asia........
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Old August 15th, 2011, 09:31 PM   #4930
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Google Istanbul, and there is your border with Europe and Asia.
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Old August 16th, 2011, 06:30 AM   #4931
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Google Istanbul, and there is your border with Europe and Asia.
There is no border in Istanbul, he is talking about a real country border... We know geographically most of Turkey is in Asia but politically it is still accepted as part of the European continent.
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Old August 16th, 2011, 11:37 AM   #4932
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Geographically speaking only real country Europe-Asia borders are Russia-Kazakhstan, Russia-Georgia and Russia-Azerbaijan.
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Old August 16th, 2011, 12:52 PM   #4933
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Geographically speaking only real country Europe-Asia borders are Russia-Kazakhstan, Russia-Georgia and Russia-Azerbaijan.
Even this is subject to discussion, because there is no common consensus about where the boundary line between Europe and Asia lies. There is no geographical reason to make a division, but a cultural and a political one.

The main area under a debate is Caucasus. There are at least two candidates for the boundary: the Caucasus mountain range watershed, and the valley of the river Kura. Kura flows trough Georgia and Azerbaijan. Because of that uncertainty, both Mont Blanc and Elbrus have been mentioned as the highest mountain in Europe.

In the east, the Europe-Asia boundary is usually drawn along the watershed of the Ural range, and along the Ural river. That definition puts the westmost parts of Kazakshtan into Europe. Not the whole Russian-Kazak border is the Europe-Asia border, only rather a short section.
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Old August 16th, 2011, 12:59 PM   #4934
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Mount Elbrus is entirely within Russia, the border is several kilometers south of the summit. I don't think there is much debate about whether Elbrus is the highest mountain in Europe.
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Old August 16th, 2011, 02:05 PM   #4935
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Mount Elbrus is entirely within Russia, the border is several kilometers south of the summit. I don't think there is much debate about whether Elbrus is the highest mountain in Europe.
In fact, there is a lot of debate on this important topic.
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Old August 16th, 2011, 07:20 PM   #4936
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Mount Elbrus is entirely within Russia, the border is several kilometers south of the summit. I don't think there is much debate about whether Elbrus is the highest mountain in Europe.
The city of Vladivostok is entirely within Russia - do you mean it is the most eastern city of Europe? ;-)
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Old August 16th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #4937
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The city of Vladivostok is entirely within Russia - do you mean it is the most eastern city of Europe? ;-)
Nope. That's probably Magadan.
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Old August 16th, 2011, 09:12 PM   #4938
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Vladivostok is in Asian Russia. Southern Russia is in geographic Europe. If the Caucasus isn't the border of Europe, then what is? Frankly, the only debate I can imagine is by the French or Italians because then the Mt Blanc is not the highest of Europe.
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Old August 16th, 2011, 09:18 PM   #4939
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Borders of Europe are much more serious than what's the highest mountain. At least once in the past a candidacy for accessing UE was denied because the proponent Nation was not in Europe. If Caucasian Republics want to seek access to UE, questions about European borders must be definitively answered.
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Old August 16th, 2011, 09:22 PM   #4940
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You mean Cape Verde?
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