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Old December 6th, 2011, 07:15 PM   #5481
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I agree. It's also in Slovenian interest to maintain the road, Italians don't need it.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 07:19 PM   #5482
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Since EU I think the road could and should be opened on Italian side.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 07:25 PM   #5483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Since EU I think the road could and should be opened on Italian side.
For do that they must demolish existing overpasses of Italian roads crossing over Osimo road and make at-grade intersections. A big work for nothing. There isn't a huge traffic here, it's almost in the middle of nowhere.
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Old December 6th, 2011, 07:27 PM   #5484
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That would require major roadworks since the road is not on the same level as the surrounding area (it's cut). And Italians don't really need to drive on that road, there're many other roads around.

EDIT: italystf was faster
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Old December 6th, 2011, 07:37 PM   #5485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
There isn't a huge traffic here, it's almost in the middle of nowhere.
There was 3,193 AADT in Podsabotin last year, so it's not completely empty, but I suppose almost no Italians drive there (except maybe roadgeeks).
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Old December 6th, 2011, 07:38 PM   #5486
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It is inside Spain but some roads that crosses one region for a few kilometres to connect other points of the neighbour region... are built and mostly maintaned by the region who uses it.

Otherwise it is possible to have a poor maintenance (for the territory that crosses but use only sometimes it will be the last priority)
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Old December 6th, 2011, 10:22 PM   #5487
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Back to Os de Civis (E): absolutely no connexion with the rest of Spain except through Andorra then ?

EDIT: on GoogleMaps, when you ask how to go from Os de Civis(E) to La Guingueta d'└neu (E), it says there are 3 ways to do it. The second one is through C-13 & takes ... the same time to do 57,8km as for 103km through N-260 & C-13 and 78km through CG-4
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Old December 6th, 2011, 10:41 PM   #5488
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Yep, it's a so called pene-enclave, a part of a territory connected to the rest of it but you can only reach that part by going through another territory. (And the word that is used for this makes me laugh because "pene" is Spanish for *****)
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Old December 7th, 2011, 12:12 AM   #5489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GROBIN View Post
Back to Os de Civis (E): absolutely no connexion with the rest of Spain except through Andorra then ?

Crossing mountains. About 2500m with off-road cars only (or trekking). The other alternative is an helicopter, used by police when they have to arrive there.

There are agreements in a lot of terms with Andorra about Health, Education, etc... and they do receive from Andorra most of services.

It could be the only Schengen border with no customs. But any citizen (a little more than 100 people) from Os de Civis who wants to go "anywhere in EU has to cross the border of Sant Juliß. This is... they entry with no control to Andorra but they have to exit crossing a border again.

They will have no passport problems (it is very infrequent to ask for passport but looking that they live at Os de Civis they will make free-pass) but they will have to cross the baggage control.

Os de Civis citizens can buy anything at Andorra (all the country is a very big duty free shop) and entry goods in the village. They do not pay taxes for them (for Spanish customs it is cheaper allowing to buy and consume things free-tax than having a custom there). But inside the village they pay taxes as another Spanish village. This is... all invoces have VAT (not at Andorra) and workers will pay taxes as any other Spanish citizen, even if it is almost impossible to notice in the road where Andorra finish and Spain start again.

They can buy as tobacco and alcohol as they want... but only for internal consume. Should they want to go anywhere in Spain they will have to enter Andorra again and crossing the main border of Sant Julia (CG-1), so then they will have to declare those goods.

Should they go trekking by the mountains with those goods they have to prove they have pay taxes. It is legal to carry too many alcohol in your bag when making trekking... but smuggling it is not allowed. If you have not declare them or cannot prove you have pay taxes you will be prosecuted because smuggling.





Quote:
EDIT: on GoogleMaps, when you ask how to go from Os de Civis(E) to La Guingueta d'└neu (E), it says there are 3 ways to do it. The second one is through C-13 & takes ... the same time to do 57,8km as for 103km through N-260 & C-13 and 78km through CG-4
CG-4 has only asphalt until the border. There is a fence and cars cannot entry in Spain. A bike will be able, and maybe there are other off-road lanes but the only border to go from Andorra to Spain (apart of Os de Civis) is CG-1 (and to France is CG-2 only too)

Andorran police use to "block" the country when they need. Once they had one murder inside the country. It is very unusual and if it happens, until they catch the delinquent, they block all the country. It is enough to close borders at Sant Julia to Spain and at Pas de la Casa to France. Closing those two borders nobody can exit the country. The rest of the country is between mountains.

Obviously it is possible to exit the country walking by any mountain, but it is very easy for them. They make a call to Spanish and French police and explain why borders are close (it happens very infrequently) and ask for cooperation. Spanish and French police have a lot of media to control mountains close to Andorran territory to avoid smuggling so any one who wants to exit the country walking there will be catched very fast!!!
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Old December 7th, 2011, 12:24 AM   #5490
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The Spanish-Andorran border at CG-1 (Sant Julia) is located in the middle of the border.

http://maps.google.es/?ll=42.435446,...h&z=17&vpsrc=6

But the French-Andorran border at CG-2 (Pas de la Casa) is located inside French territory, maybe several kilometres inside France.

http://maps.google.es/?ll=42.557095,...h&z=16&vpsrc=6

Take a look... in the side direction Andorra, being French territory there are three Andorran police cars.

http://maps.google.es/?ll=42.557153,...82.81,,1,11.76


At Pas de la Casa there borders crosses at the end of the resort. There is a tunnel from the rest of the country to Pas de la Casa. The tunnel is entirely at Andorran territory but you will arrive to a roundabout located at France (no indications that you are at France for a while), you turn right and you are again at Andorra (turning left will drive you inside France and customs are some kilometres later).

There is, nevertheless, a possibility (used only for service cars) to turn after the tunnel through Pas de la Casa always inside Andorran territory only for some metres.

Take a look that for google maps the connection between that roundabout and Pas de la Casa do nos exist!!!!!!
Choose any French city as start and Pas de la casa as End... and you will be directed crossing the tunnel and later the mountain pass!!!!!!!
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Old December 7th, 2011, 12:44 AM   #5491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
There was 3,193 AADT in Podsabotin last year, so it's not completely empty, but I suppose almost no Italians drive there (except maybe roadgeeks).
I live less than one hour from here but I never drove on that road, although I've been several times in Gorizia and few times in Nova Gorica. There are also many regular border crossings between Italy and Slovenia I've never crossed (expecially the small ones closed until 2007 and in the north).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
Yep, it's a so called pene-enclave, a part of a territory connected to the rest of it but you can only reach that part by going through another territory. (And the word that is used for this makes me laugh because "pene" is Spanish for *****)
And also in Italian.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 12:49 AM   #5492
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BTW... I talked about a phone call from Os de Civis and any town at Andorra is more expensive than calling anywhere at Finland (for example).

I explain why...


Until the end of 20th century calling inside Spain was enough to dial six or seven digits phone and two or thee ones more if different province.

Andorra was considered a half-province for phone calls in this way. Calling from Lerida province needed only to dial six numbers and calling from anywhere from Spain required to dial (I think, not remember sure) 9378 and the phone number

Later Andorra had its own international phone code: +378... and any call to Andorra requires to dial +378 XX XX XX.

At Spain, for a long period, phone companies had several international fares. The cheapest one included Western Europe (Fare A), and the next one included North Africa and Eastern Europe.

When UE included countries from Eastern Europe the situation changed. The UE made mandatory to have all international calls for UE destinations within Europe (excluding external territories) with the same fare. In this way, companies had to assume that those few calls to Eastern Europe will have the same fare to Western Europe.

What did they did?. Changing fares.. Fare A: UE, Fare B, European not-UE countries and North Africa.

And... Andorra is a not-UE European country... so Fare B apply there!!!!!!

Os de Civis has a +34 XXXXXXXX code for calls. Any Andorran town has a +378 XXXXXXX code for calls.
A call from Os de Civis to any Andorran town is more expensive than calling to Finland.

That apply too for San Marino, Monaco, Switzerland, etc... but there are many Spanish citizen who visit Andorra than those countries (and the only with a direct border).


Maybe the national company for cellular phones at Andorra makes the biggest bussiness!!!. Phones inside the country are very cheap but outside are very expensive, as well as roaming.

You go there as a tourist. The country capital is only 10 km by road from Spain and 20 km from France. You notice your cellular phone is available for receiving and making calls and you can use... but you will pay tooooooooooooo many money to Mobiland, the national Andorran mobile company.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 01:16 AM   #5493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
That apply too for San Marino, Monaco, Switzerland, etc... but there are many Spanish citizen who visit Andorra than those countries (and the only with a direct border).
So calling from Rimini to San Marino, from Como to Chiasso or from Monaco to Menton is more expensive than from Canaries to Rovaniemi? Crazy!
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Old December 7th, 2011, 01:55 AM   #5494
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It depends on the phone company! I can make a call to Australia or the USA a lot cheaper than to Greece or Bulgaria...
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Old December 7th, 2011, 02:13 AM   #5495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
BTW... I talked about a phone call from Os de Civis and any town at Andorra is more expensive than calling anywhere at Finland (for example).
...
You go there as a tourist. The country capital is only 10 km by road from Spain and 20 km from France. You notice your cellular phone is available for receiving and making calls and you can use... but you will pay tooooooooooooo many money to Mobiland, the national Andorran mobile company.
Odd situation. If I visited I would try and get a signal from a French or Spanish network so I could roam cheaply. Do many Andorrans own multiple mobiles for international calling?

There are a few odd situations with the UK phone network. For example the Channel Islands.

Jersey and Guernsey each have their own mobile and landline phone networks Guernsey includes Alderney Sark and Herm. They are part of the UK numbering plan and all international calls go through the UK. This means all landline calls there are at the national rate. They also run their own mobile networks. When calling between networks there is no problem as there is no difference in charge between mobile networks. But if I visit Jersey from the UK I am roaming, even though I am still in the same international calling code (+44). Same when they visit the UK. Roaming costs are high as they are outside the EU, just like Andorra so can charge what they like. Calling a Jersey mobile from the EU is probably capped as the call would go through the UK. I don't understand why they needed to have their own mobile networks to begin with, they could just remove the VAT on all calls made from the Channel islands if tax was the problem. Also the Isle of Man has the same issue.

Another anomaly is that you can call any number in Northern Ireland in 2 ways. From the UK +44 28 or from ROI +353 48.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 01:45 PM   #5496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless View Post
Odd situation. If I visited I would try and get a signal from a French or Spanish network so I could roam cheaply. Do many Andorrans own multiple mobiles for international calling?
from Spain there are mobile antennas in the same border and... you can use Spanish mobiles only for 1-2 km inside Andorra. They do not arrive until the first town. It is strange because you go driving, you receive a call and... should you receive by your own company... no problem. Should you receive the call via roaming by Mobiland, it is as a call to Russia or northern Africa even if you are only 3 km away.

I am sure any Andorran has a phone for any country. And... I have seen Spanish and French phones in shops there even that you need to go at least to the border to activate them (need to get direct connexion) but let's remember they are tax-free!!!

I was living at France and had two mobiles, one Spanish number and one French number. I changed in the border and if a trip, anyone knew if he had to call to one or other number.



And BTW... in Spain there are several taxes. All continental Spain and Balearic Islands use VAT, but Ceuta, Melilla and Canarias have different taxes (and they are all of them different).
When asking for phone fares in Spain they say always the fare "taxes excluded". Recently, as well as most of questions come from continental Spain or Balearic islands, they give the price with VAT and let you change the tax you may apply.

Using the same company it is a little more expensive to make a call from Zaragoza (my city) to Las Palmas (at Canarias) than upside down (from Las Palmas to Zaragoza). The difference is that having a call made at Zaragoza (continental Spain) will pay the fare and VAT, and having the same call at Las Palmas will pay the same fare (should you have the same company and fares) but different taxes...

And it is very easy to select which tax has to pay anyone because there are for antennas located in Ceuta, Melilla and Canarias only. No "border" between one and another tax.

BTW... making a call from Ceuta or Melilla to Morocco will cost too much than calling to Finland

Making a call from Canarias to Morocco, the same... but making a call to Mauritania will cost terribly more than calling to any European country, more than calling to Canada, Chile or other American country and maybe more than calling to some Asian countries.

And Canarias and Mauritania are very close.



Phone fares...





There are a few odd situations with the UK phone network. For example the Channel Islands.

Jersey and Guernsey each have their own mobile and landline phone networks Guernsey includes Alderney Sark and Herm. They are part of the UK numbering plan and all international calls go through the UK. This means all landline calls there are at the national rate. They also run their own mobile networks. When calling between networks there is no problem as there is no difference in charge between mobile networks. But if I visit Jersey from the UK I am roaming, even though I am still in the same international calling code (+44). Same when they visit the UK. Roaming costs are high as they are outside the EU, just like Andorra so can charge what they like. Calling a Jersey mobile from the EU is probably capped as the call would go through the UK. I don't understand why they needed to have their own mobile networks to begin with, they could just remove the VAT on all calls made from the Channel islands if tax was the problem. Also the Isle of Man has the same issue.

Another anomaly is that you can call any number in Northern Ireland in 2 ways. From the UK +44 28 or from ROI +353 48.[/QUOTE]
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Old December 7th, 2011, 01:53 PM   #5497
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BTW... Andorra has no post service and they are served both by Spanish and French services (Correos and La Poste).

You have to buy a French or Spanish stamp and there are mail boxes to send your letter. They put together the French and the Spanish mailbox (every service will manage their mail box but the citizen can choose).

And... event if no UE country... sending a letter to Spain or France is considered as a "national service" (as if the letter has not crossed any border). Fares are the same!

Any citizen will use the Spanish or French mail box depending if the letter goes to Spain or France (for internal mail at Andorra will choose the Spanish ones because fares are cheaper) and can choose anyone if going to another country. It will only have the difference that French or Spanish Post service will manage that letter.

And... the stamps have the same format and fare but they indicate that they have been buyed at Andorra


(and should you send a pack, be sure it will cross the scanner in the border to see if it is smuggling)
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Old December 7th, 2011, 03:14 PM   #5498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GROBIN View Post
EDIT: on GoogleMaps, when you ask how to go from Os de Civis(E) to La Guingueta d'└neu (E), it says there are 3 ways to do it. The second one is through C-13 & takes ... the same time to do 57,8km as for 103km through N-260 & C-13 and 78km through CG-4
It seems that Os de Civis is not a pene-enclave for SUVs. BTW, when some sections of A-22 weren't finished, you asked Google Maps how to go from Huesca to Barcelona and it routed you through the (tolled) E90 motorway because it was a couple of minutes faster!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Later Andorra had its own international phone code: +378... and any call to Andorra requires to dial +378 XX XX XX.
AFAIK Andorra code is +376, not +378.

Edit: I've found that +378 is San Marino.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless View Post
Another anomaly is that you can call any number in Northern Ireland in 2 ways. From the UK +44 28 or from ROI +353 48.
The same for Gibraltar, up until some years ago you could call to there using +350 X XX XX or +34 956 7X XX XX, the later being Spanish. (BTW, Gibraltar should be Spanish now!)
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Last edited by CNGL; December 7th, 2011 at 11:23 PM.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 03:16 PM   #5499
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It's the sixth time you say Gibraltar should be Spanish, stop it, nobody cares.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 04:14 PM   #5500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
The same for Gibraltar, up until some years ago you could call to there using +350 X XX XX or +34 956 7X XX XX, the later being Spanish. (BTW, Gibraltar should be Spanish now!)
Yeah, they have the same situation. Gibraltar depends from Spanish infrastructure for phone network.

Several years ago the Spanish and British governments made a new agreement where they included several points. One of them was "giving more phone numbers" to Gibraltar (changing network to allow Gibraltar to have more phone numbers).
There were several points more. One of them was about smuggling cooperation (in this case it is not only for alcohol and tobacco but also for drugs, they come from south America by ship and thanks to in a couple of kilometres you have three countries, with no cooperation they can arrive the coast and, if in Spanish side, arrive to any side in UE).

A very curious point was to made airport as bi-national. Making a flight from Spain and having a terminal to La Linea de la concepcion (E) required no customs even in origin nor at Gibraltar.
The airport (and the stadium) is located in the "neutral zone", the only territory required by Spanish authorities which considered that all located there should be shared. In fact they share only the airport (it is managed by UK) but they signed an important agreement with several points.

Furthermore... to Gibraltar arrived several flights of British Airways (from London but also several destinations more... including Malta) and Iberia started a daily flight Madrid-Gibraltar (worked like in Mulhouse, should you had a code for Gibraltar side, you had to cross passport check at Madrid and at Gibraltar, should you had a code for La Linea side, no passport control).

Today... I think that only one plane from London arrives there

Ops... and B.Airways and Iberia are... the same company today (different names but they are the same company)



Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
It's the sixth time you say Gibraltar should be Spanish, stop it, nobody cares.
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