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Old April 30th, 2013, 10:20 PM   #7321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
There's a substantial difference you obviously fail to see.

Deciding which city is capital of a state is an internal affair, and no foreign country has a right to say anything.

A country invading another one and unilaterally annexing territory and part of the capital city is an international affair, so what UN says is very important.

So, as you can see, things are different and not comparable.
I can see the difference. What you can't see is how politics works!
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Old April 30th, 2013, 10:40 PM   #7322
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Actually, Northern Cyprus is occupied by Armed Forces of Turkey so Turkey DOES claim Northern Cyprus as a part of it.
Turkey is the only country that recognizes Northern Cyprus as a country, so it can't claim it as part of itself and, at the same time, recognize it as indipendent.
Those non-recognized countries are called "puppet states", they claim to be indipendent but are subjected to an external power. Other examples today are Transnistria, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, that claim to be indipendent but are under Russian influence. In the past other example were the "countries" controlled by Nazi Germany during WWII (Italian Social Republic, Vichy France, Indipendent State of Croatia, occupied Norway and Netherlands), all Warsaw pact countries controlled by USSR, Cuba before 1959 controlled by the USA and the Kingdom of Italy (1805-1814) controlled by Napoleon's France.
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Old April 30th, 2013, 10:44 PM   #7323
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Then why did you post Nicosia in this thread?
Because there is a border crossing in that capital city....
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Old April 30th, 2013, 10:52 PM   #7324
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On the Israel/Palestine border, the DE FACTO (screw de jure, try getting into Transnistria, a country that appears on no maps, and you will see that you can shove de jure distinctions where you want them when you actually get to those places) demarcations go like this:

The 1967 armistice line is a border in some places, often mared by separation barriersmlike here.

In other places, even if Israeli settlements do exist across the line, the border is still marked by crossing points, even if sometimes you are just waived through, like here.

The real stoping points are random checkpoints, that depend in terms of location on the existence or not of any Israeli population centers across the armistice line.

And then there is Jerusalem, which is de facto united and annexed by Israel. Palestinians there are Israeli residents, and get their benefits payed by Israel.
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Old April 30th, 2013, 10:54 PM   #7325
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Originally Posted by Skyline_ View Post
I can see the difference. What you can't see is how politics works!
So enlighten me, because I can't really see your point
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Old April 30th, 2013, 10:57 PM   #7326
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Turkey is the only country that recognizes Northern Cyprus as a country, so it can't claim it as part of itself and, at the same time, recognize it as indipendent.
That is correct.
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Old April 30th, 2013, 11:03 PM   #7327
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So enlighten me, because I can't really see your point
My point was that a non-recognized city means that the world doesn't accept its status. There is a good reason for that. Jerusalem is a holy city to many religions, not just one. Moreover it is a city that was Arabic until 1948. So, turning it into a capital of newborn nation is a big deal....
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Old April 30th, 2013, 11:26 PM   #7328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyline_ View Post
My point was that a non-recognized city means that the world doesn't accept its status. There is a good reason for that. Jerusalem is a holy city to many religions, not just one. Moreover it is a city that was Arabic until 1948. So, turning it into a capital of newborn nation is a big deal....

Jews were the majority of the population in Jerusalem since the end of the 19th century. In fact, in 1944 there were 100k Jewish inhabitants and the number of Muslims and Christians residents was about 30k each.
I think you should educate yourself a bit on this subject.
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Old April 30th, 2013, 11:33 PM   #7329
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Jews were the majority of the population in Jerusalem since the end of the 19th century. In fact, in 1944 there were 100k Jewish inhabitants and the number of Muslims and Christians residents was about 30k each.
I think you should educate yourself a bit on this subject.
That is irrelevant. My city, until the early 20th century, had more Jews than Turks, Greeks and Slavs. So what? It was part of the Republic of Greece, since 1912.... Jerusalem has always been an international city, after the Greek and Roman conquests, that took place 23 centuries ago. You can't change that in only 65 years!
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Old April 30th, 2013, 11:33 PM   #7330
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Originally Posted by kob's View Post

Jews were the majority of the population in Jerusalem since the end of the 19th century. In fact, in 1944 there were 100k Jewish inhabitants and the number of Muslims and Christians residents was about 30k each.
I think you should educate yourself a bit on this subject.
I think he meant that the city belonged, politically, to a Arab-dominated entity (Mandate Palestine), even if the majority population was Jewish.

Anyway, these are all discussions. The city is now pretty much united, is de facto a part of Israel, has a population that is roughly 66% Jewish and 33% Arab.
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Old May 1st, 2013, 12:35 AM   #7331
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Because there is a border crossing in that capital city....
Correct. There's border crossing, although not any nation of the world but Turkey recognizes that there's a border at all. In fact, that's a border, even if an unrecognized one. The recognition of a border, a country, or a capital city, is not really important as long as there's no military action in order to restore the status quo ante. Turkish guards check your passport in the middle of Nicosia, the Jews do it at the edge of Jerusalem, Transdnistrian officials do it at the Dnester, and if you say them "Hey, this border is not recognized internationally so go home and watch something in TV", they will laugh, or, worst case scenario, shoot.
That's how real life works :-)
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Old May 1st, 2013, 12:50 AM   #7332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyline_ View Post
My point was that a non-recognized city means that the world doesn't accept its status. There is a good reason for that. Jerusalem is a holy city to many religions, not just one. Moreover it is a city that was Arabic until 1948. So, turning it into a capital of newborn nation is a big deal....
At least a part of Jerusalem will stay in Israel in the end, so I don't see why it can't be Israel's capital.
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Old May 1st, 2013, 12:56 AM   #7333
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Correct. There's border crossing, although not any nation of the world but Turkey recognizes that there's a border at all. In fact, that's a border, even if an unrecognized one. The recognition of a border, a country, or a capital city, is not really important as long as there's no military action in order to restore the status quo ante. Turkish guards check your passport in the middle of Nicosia, the Jews do it at the edge of Jerusalem, Transdnistrian officials do it at the Dnester, and if you say them "Hey, this border is not recognized internationally so go home and watch something in TV", they will laugh, or, worst case scenario, shoot.
That's how real life works :-)
Their occupation remains illegal though....
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Old May 1st, 2013, 12:57 AM   #7334
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At least a part of Jerusalem will stay in Israel in the end, so I don't see why it can't be Israel's capital.
It can be.... But right now it is not internationally accepted as such!
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Old May 1st, 2013, 01:25 AM   #7335
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Originally Posted by Skyline_ View Post
That is irrelevant. My city, until the early 20th century, had more Jews than Turks, Greeks and Slavs. So what? It was part of the Republic of Greece, since 1912.... Jerusalem has always been an international city, after the Greek and Roman conquests, that took place 23 centuries ago. You can't change that in only 65 years!
It is relevant just for the saying that "Until 1948 to was an Arabic city", it wasn't Arabic just like Cordoba, Toledo and Valencia weren't Arab cities. Actually, your city was once called "the Jerusalem of the Balkans" referring to the Jewish majority at some point of time... The Turk's and the British that ruled the holly-land before Israel weren't Arabs as well so your saying is just not backed by facts.
And saying it was an international city is pure nonsense, there is no such thing as an "international city" and that never was the situation with Jerusalem, it was always conquered by someone (by the Arabs, Crusaders, Mamluks and others). Every city in the world is under some kind of a sovereignty by a country and Jerusalem is under Israeli sovereignty and Israel has the moral and historical right to set it as its capital.

Last edited by kob's; May 1st, 2013 at 04:33 AM.
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Old May 1st, 2013, 01:37 AM   #7336
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Ok,.... let's change to the other corner of Europe.

I found this (in the middle of the fog).

The picture is taken in Spain. There is an unpaved path that I do not know if it is entirely within the border or full in the Portuguese side but it takes a lot of kilometres.

It seems that the stone in the middle of the cross is pointing the border so going to the left will be Portugal (a part of the path that it is paved and in a few meters turns again to inside Portugal)




taken from here

https://maps.google.es/maps?q=rosal+...321.35,,0,9.96
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Old May 1st, 2013, 01:42 AM   #7337
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It is relevant just for the saying that "Until 1948 to was an Arabic city", it wasn't Arabic just like Cordoba, Toledo and Valencia weren't Arab cities. Actually, your city was once called "the Jerusalem of the Balkans" referring to the Jewish majority at some point of time... The Turk's and the British that ruled the holly-land before Israel weren't Arabs as well so your saying is just not backed by facts.
And saying it was an international city is pure nonsense, there is no such thing as an "international city" and that never was the situation with Jerusalem, it was always conquered by someone (by the Arabs, Crusaders, Mamluks and others). Every city in the world is under some kind of a sovereignty by a country and Jerusalem is under Israeli sovereignty and Israel has the moral and historic right to set it as its capital.
You really mix up things now, twisting my words... By international city I refer to... multinational or multi-ethnic cities. What you say is 100% arbitrary. Jerusalem was simply a Semitic city in prehistory, before the Jewish nation existed. It was inhabitated and controlled and conquered for centuries by Phoenicians, Canaanites, Hebrews, Arabs, Persians, Greeks, Romans etc. To say that one country has "the moral and historic right" to set it as its capital is debatable. Jerusalem belongs to the state of Israel only for the last 65 years. It was in the hands of Arabs for centuries. It was in tha hands of Romans for centuries.... It was in the hands of the Greeks for centuries too. The same applies to the Persians, Phoenicians etc.
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Old May 1st, 2013, 02:18 AM   #7338
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You really mix up things now, twisting my words... By international city I refer to... multinational or multi-ethnic cities. What you say is 100% arbitrary. Jerusalem was simply a Semitic city in prehistory, before the Jewish nation existed. It was inhabitated and controlled and conquered for centuries by Phoenicians, Canaanites, Hebrews, Arabs, Persians, Greeks, Romans etc. To say that one country has "the moral and historic right" to set it as its capital is debatable. Jerusalem belongs to the state of Israel only for the last 65 years. It was in the hands of Arabs for centuries. It was in tha hands of Romans for centuries.... It was in the hands of the Greeks for centuries too. The same applies to the Persians, Phoenicians etc.
Your city was a multi-ethnic city, your city was under the control of the ottoman empire for 500 years. Do you refer to it as an "international city"? Do you think that the Greeks have no right to call Thessaloniki as their own? I believe they do just like the Jews have the right to do so as well, just out of the fact that it is under Greek control and it's inhabited by a Greek majority. Maybe you should declare your own city as an "international city" or maybe you just need to give it back to Turkey. After all, They controlled it for centuries and you control it only for the last 100 years...
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Old May 1st, 2013, 01:30 PM   #7339
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Your city was a multi-ethnic city, your city was under the control of the ottoman empire for 500 years. Do you refer to it as an "international city"? Do you think that the Greeks have no right to call Thessaloniki as their own? I believe they do just like the Jews have the right to do so as well, just out of the fact that it is under Greek control and it's inhabited by a Greek majority. Maybe you should declare your own city as an "international city" or maybe you just need to give it back to Turkey. After all, They controlled it for centuries and you control it only for the last 100 years...

Very funny.
The difference is that my city is not multi-ethnic anymore. Jerusalem still is.
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Old May 1st, 2013, 06:06 PM   #7340
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On to the next page.
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