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Old July 21st, 2013, 11:24 PM   #8101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post

Because the Dutch media doesn't know anything about the European Union, despite daily reports about EU issues. Croatia joined the EU. It did not enter the Schengen agreement. Hence border crossings are business as usual.
Not quite. There's still the passport formality, but since Croatia joined the EU, freight can now cross the border freely without having to clear and declare it with customs.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 12:04 AM   #8102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ni3lS View Post
I see. They're off about many things lately. However, I asked the landlord here in Pula today what's up with the border crossing and he said it's always bad. Now Croatia is part of the EU there is 1km less traffic jammed up before the border. He said that the border did open early July. The customs agents didn't really check the passports, just holding them out of the window while driving through was enough apparently.
And this is what irritates me most about the Schengen agreement.

Slovenia was guilty of not checking passports properly on exit before Croatia joined the EU, but now it sounds like they're doing the same as many other countries - not bothering to check EU citizens properly and often frequently waving them through on the basis of a passport cover alone.

Even the EU says that a minimum check applicable to EU citizens should be an identity check and a check to make sure that the passport/ID card isn't false.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 12:13 AM   #8103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Croatia joined the EU. It did not enter the Schengen agreement. Hence border crossings are business as usual.
Not quite. Joining EU implies free movement of the goods. And that means no customs between member states. However, what remains is the border control, meaning the check of the documents of the people and of the vehicles crossing the border.

So something has changed, yet the border is not "open". It was the same for Romania in 2007.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 03:02 AM   #8104
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Map of the Free Territory of Trieste (1953)

Notice that the demarcation line between the A-zone (allied-occupied) and B-zone (Yugoslavia-occipied) doesn't match perfectly with the current I-SLO border, as we lost few square kms more near Muggia in 1954 (when the Free Territory of Trieste ceased to exist).
You can notice the Sistiana-Opicina 2-lane expressway that was built by allies after WWII and now it's mostly part of the RA13 motorway.

Although in 1954 the Memorandum of London declared that Italy will temporarily administrate the A-zone (except few sq. kms given to YU) and Yugoslavia the B-zone, nothing was said about the definitive sovreignity of those lands. Italy could still claim its sovreignity in the B-zone and vice-versa.

Between 1947 and 1954, the Free Territory of Trieste was officially an indipendent country, recognized by the UN as such and received Marshall Plan funds separately. However, practically, it was made by two different entities, with a different government, currency and border controls between them.

After 20 years of de-facto annexation of those territories, Italy and Yugoslavia signed the Osimo Treaty in 1975. The two countries agreed to make definitive the "temporary administration" stated by the Memorandum of London. Both countries renounced of any claim on the territory assigned to the other.

But... there was still a problem. The UN never signed the dissolution of the Free Territory of Trieste, so even if this country disappeared 59 years ago, the ownership of the Trieste province by Italy (and probably also of the Istrian littoral by Slovenia and Croatia) still isn't 100% legally legitimated.

This allows some citizens of Trieste to found a movement that support the indipendence of Trieste from Italy (similar to the more (in)famous Suedtiroler Volkspartei in Alto Adige). In the case of Trieste, the main aim of this "indipendentism" isn't patriotic but economical: they wish to avoid paying the Italian taxes and make the little province a tax heaven.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old July 22nd, 2013, 04:45 AM   #8105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Notice that the demarcation line between the A-zone (allied-occupied) and B-zone (Yugoslavia-occipied) doesn't match perfectly with the current I-SLO border, as we lost few square kms more near Muggia in 1954
I used to bathe there a lot. (although the last time I swam there, there was still Yugoslavia )
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 09:22 AM   #8106
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Belize-Guatemala border

crossing the Belize-Guatemala border

















Guatemala wants to recover 12,270 sq. kilometers (4,737 sq. miles) of territory, or nearly half of Belize.


This area has been in dispute since 150 years ago, after Guatemala got its independence from Spain and Belize was still a British colony.

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Old July 22nd, 2013, 12:52 PM   #8107
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I used to bathe there a lot. (although the last time I swam there, there was still Yugoslavia )


No swimming near the border


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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 01:16 PM   #8108
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I almost knew but wanted to have a new look. Almost all coast borders in Spain aren't for swimming in the beach.

This is:

Portugal. Both (In Galicia and Andalucia) have the border in rivers so there is not an international beach or so.

France. In the Basque country it is in a river. In Catalonia it is in a rocky area. You can swim there, of course... but no sandy beaches in the area.

Gibraltar. Eastern side is a harbour. Western side is a fenced beach

Ceuta. Both ones are fenced beaches

Melilla. Southern side is a harbour. Northern side is a rocky side (like in the Catalonia area)

So three out of eight are fenced beaches. The rest... rocky areas or just rivers in the border where it gains the sea.

(Obviously... do not ask about Andorran borders and the sea)
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 01:28 PM   #8109
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June 1991: Slovenian soldiers replace the Yugoslavian entry sign with the Slovenian one by the Italian border


Other pics 1991



Don't know which border crossing is and why the E63 is signposted there.

This is the I-SLO border at Pesek. The road now is E61.




Italian border again (don't know where). Italian tourists escaping Yugoslavia when the war outbreak.







If many Italians probably don't know that a part of our country (Trieste province) wasn't Italian until as late as 1954, probably even less know that we had an armed conflict fought just outside our borders only 20 years ago. Yes, the Yugoslav tanks arrived only few meters before Italy in Nova Gorica.
When the JNA was defeated and Slovenia and Croatia declared their indipendence, Yugoslav soldiers had to escape from Slovenia and Croatia. The Italian government agreed that they could cross into Italy and escape by boat from the Trieste port. Trieste citizens, that remembered the horrible Yugoslavian invasion that just 46 years before killed thousands of Italian citizens, started a revolt against the decision of our government: allowing the JNA passing through Trieste is like allowing the SS passing through Israel. So they made an agreement that they could escape through Koper port.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 01:37 PM   #8110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I almost knew but wanted to have a new look. Almost all coast borders in Spain aren't for swimming in the beach.

This is:

Portugal. Both (In Galicia and Andalucia) have the border in rivers so there is not an international beach or so.

France. In the Basque country it is in a river. In Catalonia it is in a rocky area. You can swim there, of course... but no sandy beaches in the area.

Gibraltar. Eastern side is a harbour. Western side is a fenced beach

Ceuta. Both ones are fenced beaches

Melilla. Southern side is a harbour. Northern side is a rocky side (like in the Catalonia area)

So three out of eight are fenced beaches. The rest... rocky areas or just rivers in the border where it gains the sea.

(Obviously... do not ask about Andorran borders and the sea)
The sign at the I-SLO border is obviously pre-Schengen and it doesn't make any sense today, unless there are other reasons to ban swimming there.

Some pics of the only other Italian coastal border: I-F between Ventimiglia and Mentone



Also here no swimming beaches, only rocks.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 04:53 PM   #8111
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Not many tourists were escaping Yugoslavia (and later Croatia) when the war began. I know a weird family who has been continually visiting Vodice destination in Croatia for holiday since 1985 even during war period. According to they, lot of other people were there bathing and sunbathing even though they heard the shooting and explosions.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 05:41 PM   #8112
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During Yugoslav wars (1991-95) you could safely visit Slovenia and the Croatian Istria, except during those 10 days in summer '91.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 06:52 PM   #8113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
Not many tourists were escaping Yugoslavia (and later Croatia) when the war began. I know a weird family who has been continually visiting Vodice destination in Croatia for holiday since 1985 even during war period. According to they, lot of other people were there bathing and sunbathing even though they heard the shooting and explosions.
Another sort of adrenalin holiday . I talked once with a guy who told me they just watched the TV and saw a crater on a place where they parked their car weeks earlier in Yugoslavia during their holiday.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 10:04 PM   #8114
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Ventimiglia - The gates of Italy ... where the beauty is borderless.

Great, but very few foreigners are able to understand this ...
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 10:20 PM   #8115
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I understood all the text. I do not know if a French would be able to understand all the text too.

Think that almost all international traffic should come from France, later Spain and finally Portugal. Other countries would choose a different border to enter into Italy.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 10:43 PM   #8116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
During Yugoslav wars (1991-95) you could safely visit Slovenia and the Croatian Istria, except during those 10 days in summer '91.
And Zagreb (I was there in 1992). What also interested me: the then Croatian bordercrossing with Hunary still had "Yugoslav" coloured ramps.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 02:53 AM   #8117
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I bathed here a lot when I was small, not directly on the border.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I almost knew but wanted to have a new look. Almost all coast borders in Spain aren't for swimming in the beach.

This is:

Portugal. Both (In Galicia and Andalucia) have the border in rivers so there is not an international beach or so.

France. In the Basque country it is in a river. In Catalonia it is in a rocky area. You can swim there, of course... but no sandy beaches in the area.

Gibraltar. Eastern side is a harbour. Western side is a fenced beach

Ceuta. Both ones are fenced beaches

Melilla. Southern side is a harbour. Northern side is a rocky side (like in the Catalonia area)

So three out of eight are fenced beaches. The rest... rocky areas or just rivers in the border where it gains the sea.

(Obviously... do not ask about Andorran borders and the sea)
You can bathe between Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera and Morocco (in both bays, I assume):

[IMG]http://i50.************/2yy376h.jpg[/IMG]
http://i50.************/2yy376h.jpg
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 09:02 AM   #8118
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you're right... I forgot the "blue rope border"
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 11:12 AM   #8119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
I bathed here a lot when I was small, not directly on the border.

You can bathe between Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera and Morocco (in both bays, I assume):

[IMG]http://i50.************/2yy376h.jpg[/IMG]
http://i50.************/2yy376h.jpg
there I was doing military service in 1986......
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 11:23 AM   #8120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Don't know which border crossing is and why the E63 is signposted there.
The road now is E61.
Maybe it was the old E-road classification...
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