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Old January 15th, 2014, 11:16 PM   #9281
Eulanthe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
But borders were actually more open earlier? Didn't know that.
Talking from a post-WW2 point of view, yes. I think France and West Germany maintained visas for each other for a while, but the Benelux countries dismantled their internal borders very early. You'll find plenty of examples where people could move relatively freely across land borders - one reason why Schengen was so easy to implement in Western Europe was that the borders weren't really guarded for pedestrians anyway.

As far as I gather, by 1985 and the signing of the Schengen Agreement, controls on internal EEC borders focused much more on goods than people. That's why land borders tended to be weakly defended (even - as far as I know - West Germany maintained an open border with the DDR for identity checking purposes, but not for customs). Once it became obvious that customs controls were going to be abolished - there was no sense whatsoever in maintaining identity checks.

These days, with the technology available, wouldn't it be a formality to use a technological solution to allow locals to move freely in Derby Line/Stanstead?
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Old January 16th, 2014, 12:55 AM   #9282
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There is really no excuse for a technological solution to Derby Line issue, the US has spent billions making large roving teams of border patrols, massive border posts, etc etc. But in reality there is essentially no threat or problem there that needs to be stopped. Technological solution would only impinge on the privacy of the locals and cost needless taxpayer dollars (really this is a very small population)

Definitely on a consistent slope upwards crossing the border is considerably more troublesome than before that unfortunate event. Even as has been needed for a while now, passport to cross border. It's expensive and hurts economy of both sides. Previously if one was Canadian or US citizen, only needed to say as much when crossing, and passport or other identity paperwork was not required. In say, 2000, in ideal conditions could cross border checkpoint in 2 minutes approx, now best case, at least 5-7 minutes, and not uncommon to spend more than 2 hours waiting in certain places. It is very expensive.

What is curious is border checkpoints did not exist at all previous to approximately 1961 I want to say...
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:03 AM   #9283
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blame it on the military-industrial complex
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Old January 16th, 2014, 04:14 PM   #9284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
There is really no excuse for a technological solution to Derby Line issue, the US has spent billions making large roving teams of border patrols, massive border posts, etc etc. But in reality there is essentially no threat or problem there that needs to be stopped. Technological solution would only impinge on the privacy of the locals and cost needless taxpayer dollars (really this is a very small population)

Definitely on a consistent slope upwards crossing the border is considerably more troublesome than before that unfortunate event. Even as has been needed for a while now, passport to cross border. It's expensive and hurts economy of both sides. Previously if one was Canadian or US citizen, only needed to say as much when crossing, and passport or other identity paperwork was not required. In say, 2000, in ideal conditions could cross border checkpoint in 2 minutes approx, now best case, at least 5-7 minutes, and not uncommon to spend more than 2 hours waiting in certain places. It is very expensive.

What is curious is border checkpoints did not exist at all previous to approximately 1961 I want to say...
Well, I don't remember 1961. I do remember being able to cross the (U.S.-Canadian) border without ID; you said you were a U.S. citizen, they took your word for it (unless they had reason to doubt it.)

My last trip, I had a 20-minute wait northbound at the I-87/A-15 crossing and a much shorter wait southbound at rte. 173/US 201. But in both cases got more questions than I ever had in the past and had to pop open my trunk. (Also, the agent entering Maine on my return trip asked where I was going. I had an urge to say, "I'm entering my own country; is that really any of your business?")

I agree it's annoying. And feels a bit silly in the case of two very culturally similar, friendly countries. But any attempt to loosen it would probably come up against things like the so-called Millennium Bomber (and the fact that our Congress these days is incapable of doing anything). As for Derby Line/Stanstead, the problem I see with putting the barriers outside the towns is it makes it necessary for residents of Derby Line heading farther into the U.S., or residents of Stanstead heading farther into Canada, have to pass through customs to get to the rest of their own country.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 04:43 PM   #9285
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https://maps.google.it/maps?q=derby+...gl=it&t=h&z=15
It looks like there are already two border crossings in Derby Line, very close each other: I91-route 55 and road 5-route 143.
So, what's the problem if small streets 200 meters away are closed? It's not that locals need huge detours to go from a side to another.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Last edited by italystf; January 16th, 2014 at 04:49 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 06:35 PM   #9286
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Meanwhile in Europe you get this: pedestrian bridge between countries
No customs, free travel. Poland left - Slovakia right
http://goo.gl/maps/29J2P


https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/39224921
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Old January 16th, 2014, 07:28 PM   #9287
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Where is the border?



http://jornalaplateia.com/aplateia/w...RQUE-AEREA.jpg



Santana do Livramento/Rivera
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Old January 16th, 2014, 08:18 PM   #9288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Meanwhile in Europe you get this: pedestrian bridge between countries
No customs, free travel. Poland left - Slovakia right
http://goo.gl/maps/29J2P


https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/39224921
I've been in Poland once for 5 minutes. Just passed this bridge, went to next shop on Polish side, bought some great home-made Polish Krowki and got back to Slovakia But I can say I have ever been in Poland.

Btw. the bridge on picture looks like being fallen apart.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 08:50 PM   #9289
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I guess it's because of the wide angle

I've driven by that bridge in May 2013, had no idea about it, saw it from the car, but didn't stop. We were already coming from Poland, from Niedzica and heading towards Stará Ľubovňa, Slovakia.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 08:57 PM   #9290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
I guess it's because of the wide angle

I've driven by that bridge in May 2013, had no idea about it, saw it from the car, but didn't stop. We were already coming from Poland, from Niedzica and heading towards Stará Ľubovňa, Slovakia.
I think this bridge is quite new (2007+-). But speaking about pedestrian/cyclo-bridges, this is between Austria and Slovakia.
Also known as Chuck Norris Bridge
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:04 PM   #9291
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Originally Posted by OriK View Post
I agree with you, I also hope it lasts. But I really think that, not being possible to implement something similar in the whole world... there are specific borders or groups of countries that with a little bit of iniciative could mimic Schengen. USA-Canada is a clear example.
The problem of a Schengen system between USA and Canada is maybe because they do not work together if an wanted person gets to Canada. (At least that is the case in movies xD)

There need to be bigger cooperations betweens polices and in some cases have the same laws.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:12 PM   #9292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
I think this bridge is quite new (2007+-). But speaking about pedestrian/cyclo-bridges, this is between Austria and Slovakia.
Also known as Chuck Norris Bridge
That's an interesting one
This one is between Germany and Poland - built 2004

image hosted on flickr

Görlitz/Zgorzelec by cinxxx, on Flickr
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:13 PM   #9293
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I also don't think that security-sensitive United States is willing to relinquish some of the external border security to the Canadians.

Interestingly, the U.S. state department warns about easy movement of potential terrorists between European countries because of lack of border controls, but it's actually not that different from the U.S., where "potential terrorists" can also freely travel across the country.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:16 PM   #9294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Festin View Post
The problem of a Schengen system between USA and Canada is maybe because they do not work together if an wanted person gets to Canada. (At least that is the case in movies xD)

There need to be bigger cooperations betweens polices and in some cases have the same laws.
I do not have any knowledge about this issue, but my question is: Which country is more strict in their safety steps? Or could be the mutual distrust the problem?
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:22 PM   #9295
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Unmarked (apart border stones) border crossing between Austria and Hungary (I was there 1,5 years ago)
https://maps.google.it/maps?ll=46.15...300.93,,0,9.05
You hardly notice that you cross the former Iron Curtain.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:33 PM   #9296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Unmarked (apart border stones) border crossing between Austria and Hungary (I was there 1,5 years ago)
https://maps.google.it/maps?ll=46.15...300.93,,0,9.05
You hardly notice that you cross the former Iron Curtain.
Your link leads to Switzerland-France border.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:52 PM   #9297
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Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
I do not have any knowledge about this issue, but my question is: Which country is more strict in their safety steps? Or could be the mutual distrust the problem?
I think distrust is too strong a word; Americans and Canadians generally get along, officials included. But if you were a politician on either side of the border, you'd voted to open the border and then something happened on your side of the border committed by someone from the "dangerous" parts of the world who'd come through the other country....

Basic caution, basic fear of the future (fear of the unknown).... There's always a portion of the electorate (including, for example, my mother) who are perfectly willing to cede power to the government on the assumption that it'll protect us. Hence the NSA. (Don't want to open that up here but the fact that people are willing to let the NSA do what it's been doing seems to me another aspect of the same phenomenon.)
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:56 PM   #9298
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Interesting fact about the bridge I posted above, there were no signs that informed you that you are crossing any border, but you will notice the language change
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:57 PM   #9299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Festin View Post
The problem of a Schengen system between USA and Canada is maybe because they do not work together if an wanted person gets to Canada. (At least that is the case in movies xD)

There need to be bigger cooperations betweens polices and in some cases have the same laws.


So it happens in Europe too...

Laws apply only in each country and if a criminal is required by justice they must make an international call to catch him and give them back.

They are usually fast but... obviously exemptions can be at all!!!


In my country we have had in the recent years quite important corruption cases and, first measure taken by judge is to go-off passport.

WTF!!!, he is saying them that he isn't allowed to go out of Spain and can be punished but...
- having passport is not mandatory is Spain (sometimes I wonder if they really have it or they just say that passport was gone off...
- obviously they will be able to move within Schengen area without any custom control. They are just adviced that taking out of the country will be a new crime.

and... just a casualty but I haven't heard ever those typical images of a criminal waiting to be judged without passport, moving near borders and crossing them "by mistake". It is curious but never have heard about those cases.

It is not a joke, there are several cities near the border and, in fact, one importan city close to French border and another one to Portuguese border. You can be there because business and sometimes borders aren't pointed or you are driving over a motorway and nothing says that next exit is in another country...
but this case... never heard.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 10:01 PM   #9300
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by the way about not able to cross a border.
Obviously within Schengen zone, citizens can move free and police can make their controls within an area.
But army isn't allowed to "invade" a country.

I love this lake
https://maps.google.es/?ll=42.799431...76647&t=h&z=14

In the area there are several Barracks of Spanish Army to train about mountain operations. If you go there you will often see them training but... you will never see them around that lake.

The reason is because there are four ways to arrive there:

- Crossing a great deal of mountains
- Climbing from Aspe valley in France
- Trekking from Echo valley in Spain (long journey)
- Trekking from Candanchu ski resort. This one is the easiest but if you set google maps with aerial view options you will notice that the only possibility requires to cross borders for a while!


So they never go there...
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