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Old January 18th, 2014, 06:29 PM   #9341
Kirov88
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Of course. Crossing borders arms in hands is a declaration of war.
This happens a lot between the Netherlands and Germany. Somehow we haven't been at war lately.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 06:42 PM   #9342
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Schengen would be really great for many Romanian communities located at the border with Hungary and Bulgaria. They could develop together with the community from the other side, roads would be built between them, since no border checks anymore...
Schengen or not, couldn't Romania and Bulgaria do that on their own, I mean, just as far as the border between them is concerned?
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Old January 18th, 2014, 06:43 PM   #9343
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. If you don't get things done properly before you embark on an adventure, you're in for nasty surprises. We've already seen that with Greece, who shouldn't have been anywhere near Europe.

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Old January 18th, 2014, 07:40 PM   #9344
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Schengen or not, couldn't Romania and Bulgaria do that on their own, I mean, just as far as the border between them is concerned?
Of course they could, but for some reason such a move is not even discussed between the politicians of the 2 countries. Maybe some Schengen countries oppose it in order to have as many borders as possible between the Schengen area and the external EU borders and for as long as possible, to make it harder for illegal immigrants to get in. But if I were in charge of Romania and/or Bulgaria, I would lift any border checks between the two counties and also between Romania and Hungary and between Bulgaria and Greece, regardless of what the Hungarians and Greeks themselves do with their side of the borders. And if any Schengen country objected, I would tell them to go [email protected] themselves. They aren't the only ones who can break an agreement and act unilaterally.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 07:47 PM   #9345
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Originally Posted by Kirov88 View Post
This happens a lot between the Netherlands and Germany. Somehow we haven't been at war lately.
I said "uninvited" elsewere. Of course they were invited.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 08:00 PM   #9346
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Btw. Hungary is strongly in favour of Romania and Bulgaria joining the Schengen area and on a sidenote: So am I. And not just because of the Hungarians who live there.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 08:17 PM   #9347
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. If you don't get things done properly before you embark on an adventure, you're in for nasty surprises. We've already seen that with Greece, who shouldn't have been anywhere near Europe.

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Meh, you can't even provoke me anymore...
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Old January 18th, 2014, 08:18 PM   #9348
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I said "uninvited" elsewere. Of course they were invited.
No, they weren't. They just accidentally crossed the border during an exercise and brought back by the German Police.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 08:20 PM   #9349
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Originally Posted by Kirov88 View Post
No, they weren't. They just accidentally crossed the border during an exercise and brought back by the German Police.
Ok, I give up. My message was clear but evidently there is still someone splitting hairs...
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Old January 18th, 2014, 09:27 PM   #9350
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Another problem with RO and BG in Schengen is that it creates a free corridor between Greece (where many Asian and African immigrants arrive) and Western Europe.
Croatia in Schengen should not be a problem if it controls well the borders with BIH, SRB and MNE.
I don't understand. Is this a problem to get to Greece and then take a boat, ship and plane and freely get to the rest parts of Schengen? Having Romania and Bulgaria in Schengen is not a problem to me.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 10:11 PM   #9351
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Schengen or not, couldn't Romania and Bulgaria do that on their own, I mean, just as far as the border between them is concerned?
Wanted to write that myself but forgot. Maybe the civil society should try to bring this subject more into the open. Schengen border infrastructure as signed in the agreement the others won't respect was implemented only on the outer borders of the EU by RO&BG anyway. This is why they can only join together at once...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurentzius View Post
Of course they could, but for some reason such a move is not even discussed between the politicians of the 2 countries. Maybe some Schengen countries oppose it in order to have as many borders as possible between the Schengen area and the external EU borders and for as long as possible, to make it harder for illegal immigrants to get in. But if I were in charge of Romania and/or Bulgaria, I would lift any border checks between the two counties and also between Romania and Hungary and between Bulgaria and Greece, regardless of what the Hungarians and Greeks themselves do with their side of the borders. And if any Schengen country objected, I would tell them to go [email protected] themselves. They aren't the only ones who can break an agreement and act unilaterally.
One of the best posts regarding this subject
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Old January 18th, 2014, 11:36 PM   #9352
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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
I have a friend who is involved at a fairly high level with Schengen policy here in Poland, and in his opinion, there's no hope of Romania/Bulgaria joining anytime soon. There's just too much fear over opening the door to Romania, while Bulgaria still has far too many problems.
Can you please enlighten me ? Opening the doors for what? There are already few years since I can travel all around Europe showing (if someone ask me) only my ID card. From my country I travelled to the Highlands of Scotland and to the northernmost point of Europe, Nordkapp. With a car and a caravan large enough to smuggle booze, cigarettes or prostitutes . But I didn't.
If you believe the present Romanian/Hungarian joint border control will stop the traffic of illegal goods or immigration, than you should ask Romanian or Hungarian forumers here. That joint control is a total waste of time, resources and money. The cars are stopped for just few seconds and sometimes the border officers don't even bother to take a look at your ID, not to mention inside your car. And thank God it is like that! We're not in the Soviet era anymore.
Don't worry, the Romanian gangs and immigrants you fear so much are already in your country .

Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
I don't understand. Is this a problem to get to Greece and then take a boat, ship and plane and freely get to the rest parts of Schengen? Having Romania and Bulgaria in Schengen is not a problem to me.
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Originally Posted by Skyline_ View Post
Immigrants also arrive from Italy where the corridor to the rest of Europe is already open....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_Frost View Post
yes, but why is it so difficult to make (or force) the greeks to guard their borders properly? i mean this whole issue around RO/BG and schengen is just ridicolous. i must say, i am a little disappointed by brussels when it comes to this question.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 11:59 PM   #9353
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Originally Posted by nenea_hartia View Post
Don't worry, the Romanian gangs and immigrants you fear so much are already in your country .
He does not worry about anything, Schengen's authorities do.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 12:42 AM   #9354
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^ I hope no one will consider my post above offensive in any way, 'cause that was not my intention.
As I wrote, considering my freedom of movement, lifting Schengen restrictions for my country won't mean so much, because I can already travel wherever I want. But you need to understand our frustration regarding this issue: the joint HU/RO border control, no matter how light it is now, it gives me the sad feeling that I am a second-class EU citizen . And I honestly do not understand its purpose, because:
- illegal traffic of any kind was and is still easy to do, Schengen or no Schengen;
- who wanted to leave Romania to settle in the West already did it, or will do it in the future, Schengen or no Schengen;
- if the western EU countries are afraid of the African immigrants already in Greece, would it be fair to punish my country or Bulgaria for it?

Ok, about the part where EU is trying to enforce a state of law in Romania using Schengen space as bargaining chip: I'm afraid that our politicians don't care too much about it. For them there is no border control when they travel abroad. EU could try something more effective, like a hide and seek with the post-accession funds for Romania, because otherwise is only punishing decent people.
In the end, this Schengen subject will only drive good people to Euroscepticism. I have a lot of friends who feel themselves humiliated by this unexplained refusal to lift restrictions. Not to mention what the owners of freight transport companies feel about it.

And posts like this won't help very much either :
Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Croatia in Schengen should not be a problem if it controls well the borders with BIH, SRB and MNE.
So Croatia is not a problem if it controls its borders, but Romania and Bulgaria are, although they are controlling their borders already (according to EU Commission both countries have fulfilled all technical requirements).

So you see...
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Old January 19th, 2014, 02:44 AM   #9355
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Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. If you don't get things done properly before you embark on an adventure, you're in for nasty surprises. We've already seen that with Greece, who shouldn't have been anywhere near Europe.
Same as UK.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 02:56 AM   #9356
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That's why the French made sure to make the Antienglischerschutzkanal to keep those wrong-side of road driving strange people a bit isolated from Europe
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Old January 19th, 2014, 10:47 AM   #9357
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That is actually a blessing - I don't think anyone declares the goods if nobody stops you to check them. Basically you save the french VAT since CH is not in the EU and therefore you can claim it back, whilst at the same time you don't pay the swiss VAT either (which in any case is way lower) and prices in general are also lower. In the airport is the same, I always cross my fingers - if no guards stop you to check your goods (which does happen, but not very often -i've had it twice-) then once you cross the doors it's all yours!
As I understand this - if you look at the sign on every single authorised border crossing for transporting goods, you're effectively making a declaration every time regardless of the presence of customs officers or not. I'm guessing CH wouldn't take too kindly to someone caught evading the Swiss import taxes on more than one occasion...

Quote:
Can you please enlighten me ? Opening the doors for what? There are already few years since I can travel all around Europe showing (if someone ask me) only my ID card. From my country I travelled to the Highlands of Scotland and to the northernmost point of Europe, Nordkapp. With a car and a caravan large enough to smuggle booze, cigarettes or prostitutes . But I didn't.
If you believe the present Romanian/Hungarian joint border control will stop the traffic of illegal goods or immigration, than you should ask Romanian or Hungarian forumers here. That joint control is a total waste of time, resources and money. The cars are stopped for just few seconds and sometimes the border officers don't even bother to take a look at your ID, not to mention inside your car. And thank God it is like that! We're not in the Soviet era anymore.
Yup, it's all complete nonsense. The Hungarians in particular obviously couldn't care less, and it seems that they don't even bother to query the Schengen database for the vast majority of travellers. Speaking as someone who strongly believes in Schengen - the situation at the minute is a farce. If we don't trust Romania, why aren't we checking everyone properly at the border, like the HU/SRB border?

The fear I talk about is mostly in the heads of some Western politicians who have never been to the HU/RO border to see how it works in practice anyway. I suspect that it's all really to do with the Roma population - as it stands, if things deteriorate badly in Western Europe with them, they can be deported back to Romania and border controls used to keep them out of Schengen on some vague legal grounds.

But yes, I agree that Romania and Bulgaria should just unilaterally lift their controls on the land border at least. There's certainly nothing stopping them creating a mini-Schengen space with Bulgaria, after all. They aren't in Schengen, and there's nothing stopping EU members from having their own free travel area - the UK/Ireland have their own, and the Benelux had one before Schengen too.

Does anyone know if Hungary and Romania are even bothering to patrol the land border these days?

Having said all this, I think the way that some Schengen members treat the border with non-Schengen countries is an absolute joke. If anything, we need Bulgaria and Romania in simply so that we go back to guarding most of the Schengen border properly.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 10:55 AM   #9358
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Originally Posted by nenea_hartia View Post
^

... As I wrote, considering my freedom of movement, lifting Schengen restrictions for my country won't mean so much, because I can already travel wherever I want. But you need to understand our frustration regarding this issue: the joint HU/RO border control, no matter how light it is now, it gives me the sad feeling that I am a second-class EU citizen ...

if I were you (Romanian) I would worry too much. OK you are out of Schengen... so what ? you guys still can travel wherever you want with United Europe. OK, on your way to West Europe you have to break up some ID at HU Border. does it really hurt you ? all in all Germans have to pop up their own IDs at RO border.

definately being in Schengen/out of Schengen does not make me feel a second-class EU citizien.

definatly the point is:
once my nation becomes rich everybody will be knocking at my door. so lets improve things in our own countries and soon everything will be alright
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Old January 19th, 2014, 11:38 AM   #9359
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Originally Posted by nenea_hartia View Post
^ I hope no one will consider my post above offensive in any way, 'cause that was not my intention.
As I wrote, considering my freedom of movement, lifting Schengen restrictions for my country won't mean so much, because I can already travel wherever I want. But you need to understand our frustration regarding this issue: the joint HU/RO border control, no matter how light it is now, it gives me the sad feeling that I am a second-class EU citizen . And I honestly do not understand its purpose, because:
- illegal traffic of any kind was and is still easy to do, Schengen or no Schengen;
- who wanted to leave Romania to settle in the West already did it, or will do it in the future, Schengen or no Schengen;
- if the western EU countries are afraid of the African immigrants already in Greece, would it be fair to punish my country or Bulgaria for it?

Ok, about the part where EU is trying to enforce a state of law in Romania using Schengen space as bargaining chip: I'm afraid that our politicians don't care too much about it. For them there is no border control when they travel abroad. EU could try something more effective, like a hide and seek with the post-accession funds for Romania, because otherwise is only punishing decent people.
In the end, this Schengen subject will only drive good people to Euroscepticism. I have a lot of friends who feel themselves humiliated by this unexplained refusal to lift restrictions. Not to mention what the owners of freight transport companies feel about it.

And posts like this won't help very much either :

So Croatia is not a problem if it controls its borders, but Romania and Bulgaria are, although they are controlling their borders already (according to EU Commission both countries have fulfilled all technical requirements).

So you see...
The main problem with Romania and Bulgaria joining the Schengen treaty is the influx of new criminals. We already have huge problems with Polish and Romanian criminals. Also, because of EU law, we have to pay social security to foreigners, that have worked here, but already returned to their country of origin. This makes it highly unpopular for new cases.

Middle and Western Europe needs new labor and the demand increases a lot during the next two decades because of the aging population but the people from, especially Romania, that add value to are workforce, are already here.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 11:49 AM   #9360
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The main problem with Romania and Bulgaria joining the Schengen treaty is the influx of new criminals.
They are already here . There will be no difference after joining Schengen...
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