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Old January 19th, 2014, 11:52 AM   #9361
Kirov88
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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
They are already here . There will be no difference after joining Schengen...
Easier to cross borders = more.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 12:04 PM   #9362
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'

The fear I talk about is mostly in the heads of some Western politicians who have never been to the HU/RO border to see how it works in practice anyway. I suspect that it's all really to do with the Roma population - as it stands, if things deteriorate badly in Western Europe with them, they can be deported back to Romania and border controls used to keep them out of Schengen on some vague legal grounds.


.
There is false political correctness in Europe in terms of Roma issue. Western countries (or rather their authorities) are affraid of them, but are really not satisfied over the way how their home countries treat them at the same time.

First, to maintain political corectness, I have nothing against Rome people if they do their best to have job and to avoid live a life of criminals.

In Slovakia, question about Roma segregation is popular. Some people in apartment houses in localities neighbouring with Roma settlements, saved their money and built a wall arround their land to keep Roma people out of there (they used their land as a shortcut). Roma people, especially those who live in segregated settlements are lacking basic education and they don´t find stealing food as an act of criminality. People in apartment houses were often insulted by Roma people and were demolating their properties. Now the criminality is over, but some intelectuals from West were really dissatisfied about that and media marked us as racists.

I live in Bratislava where are few Roma people, but well-educated and polite. My neighbourhood is Roma-free, but it is near city centre and therefore the criminality is obviously higher as some homelesses like to break into our house and sometimes break glass for that purpose. So we saved are money, built a fence or wall and everything are solved now.

Am I racist? I don´t care which nationality homelesses are. I just care that I must waste my money to repair broken glass.

Sometimes I think that political corectness lead to incorrectness. If you are applying for a study, you always have to take an exam. If you reach enough points, you are accepted, if not you are not. The same goes for Roma, Hungarians, Inuints, etc. too. But some intelectuals consider fact, that Roma person got insufficent results and therefore is not accepted as racism. For me, racism would be in case, if Roma person got enought points and was not accepted after all. Please see the difference.
Sorry for bring this topic up.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 12:19 PM   #9363
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Originally Posted by Kirov88 View Post
Easier to cross borders = more.
Already no controls (showing ID only) = no appreciable increase.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 12:23 PM   #9364
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It's really not about the border controls, they are a joke anyway and Schengen or not Schengen will make no noticable difference. It's just vengeance by populist politicians to get back at Romania and Bulgaria for... yes for what?
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Old January 19th, 2014, 12:38 PM   #9365
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Originally Posted by Kirov88 View Post
Easier to cross borders = more.
Those "criminals" are already there have no fear. Even when visas were required, they found ways to get there. But now in the EU Romanians and Bulgarians can cross whenever they want how many times they want into EU countries, Schengen members or not. It's simply one of those EU rights that's not negotiable.

Now, at border with Hungary, you show ID or passport, it doesn't take more then 30 seconds, some people are only waved to pass, no ID shown at all !!!

Romania has even begun to build cyclist roads towards the border, Hungary the same, there are other local roads between communities where you are not allowed to pass, and those communities loose because of that. If RO were in Schengen, bus lines could be opened, etc, like you can for example to travel from Germany into France with local transport.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 12:43 PM   #9366
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's really not about the border controls, they are a joke anyway and Schengen or not Schengen will make no noticable difference. It's just vengeance by populist politicians to get back at Romania and Bulgaria for... yes for what?
I have been thinking at least Romania used to have a good relations with the former west, does not it?
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Old January 19th, 2014, 12:46 PM   #9367
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Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Romania has even begun to build cyclist roads towards the border, Hungary the same, there are other local roads between communities where you are not allowed to pass, and those communities loose because of that. If RO were in Schengen, bus lines could be opened, etc, like you can for example to travel from Germany into France with local transport.
yes, if i am not mistaken we have 4 roads which are currently useless because there were no border checkpoints built.

roads like this for example: http://magyarnarancs.hu/kismagyarors...lezartak-82842

in a few months M43 will be a road like this too
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Old January 19th, 2014, 12:54 PM   #9368
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I have been thinking at least Romania used to have a good relations with the former west, does not it?
They still have. The Netherlands is one of the biggest investors in Romania.

Unfortunately many people see Romanians as people like those who come in boats from Africa, but then legal. A relatively small part of the population is extremely ignorant and uneducated on economic and EU matters, but they tend to dominate the media. Just read those comments at news sites, the Netherlands would be doomed if everyone was as stupid and ignorant as those who comment there.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 12:57 PM   #9369
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Originally Posted by Jack_Frost View Post
yes, if i am not mistaken we have 4 roads which are currently useless because there were no border checkpoints built.

roads like this for example: http://magyarnarancs.hu/kismagyarors...lezartak-82842

in a few months M43 will be a road like this too
Not to mention the railway connections that can be (re)opened. Just look at the eastern parts of map (the map itself is a bit wide so I only post the link here):
http://www.mkk.zpok.hu/images/vasutterkep_n.jpg
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Old January 19th, 2014, 01:03 PM   #9370
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true. first of all, the debrecen-oradea connection, just to mention my favorite (okay, could be connected right this minute on hungarian soil east of biharkeresztes)
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Old January 19th, 2014, 01:09 PM   #9371
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
dominate the media. Just read those comments at news sites
There are also some political parties like the German Bavarian CSU (> click <, > click < and > click <).

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Old January 19th, 2014, 01:43 PM   #9372
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
They still have. The Netherlands is one of the biggest investors in Romania.

Unfortunately many people see Romanians as people like those who come in boats from Africa, but then legal. A relatively small part of the population is extremely ignorant and uneducated on economic and EU matters, but they tend to dominate the media. Just read those comments at news sites, the Netherlands would be doomed if everyone was as stupid and ignorant as those who comment there.
Don't even bother for such comments in media, according to my experience, 90 % of them are just trolls not meaning it seriously
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Old January 19th, 2014, 02:06 PM   #9373
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Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Now, at border with Hungary, you show ID or passport, it doesn't take more then 30 seconds, some people are only waved to pass, no ID shown at all !!!
I remember crossing the SLO/HR border ~5 years ago, it also didn't take more than 30 seconds, I'm not sure if the guard even bothered to check if the people in the car are the same that on the passports he was given.
(Still, the traffic jam caused by the border control was over 10km long.)
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Old January 19th, 2014, 02:10 PM   #9374
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Originally Posted by Kirov88 View Post
The main problem with Romania and Bulgaria joining the Schengen treaty is the influx of new criminals. We already have huge problems with Polish and Romanian criminals. Also, because of EU law, we have to pay social security to foreigners, that have worked here, but already returned to their country of origin. This makes it highly unpopular for new cases.

Middle and Western Europe needs new labor and the demand increases a lot during the next two decades because of the aging population but the people from, especially Romania, that add value to are workforce, are already here.
I am sorry to say it, but everything you wrote contradicts your statement . From what I see, criminals are already there, valuable work force is already there, people abusing (?) of your social security system are (were) already there. About social security, I think everywhere in Europe applies the principle of contribution, meaning you will be recompensated in a fair proportion of your contribution. If your country's system is paying the foreigners, that would mean they have already contributed to the system, so I don't think it is unfair, even if they do not live in your country anymore.
I know, this subject was brought to paroxysm in some countries. For instance, there is a media frenzy in the United Kingdom which warns about a wave of locusts of biblical proportions coming from Romania whose only goal is to put under siege and abuse of the UK social security system. Personally, I don't think is possible. If you are not legally paying your contributions first, I don't see how would they give you something in return.

Now going back to Schengen issue: part of the western media wants to create the false illusion that the present restrictions will keep criminals and immigration out. Absolutely wrong and not true!! Even the Rroma expelled from France have all the legal rights to leave Romania next day if they have not committed any criminal act here! Even if the HU/RO border officers would know for sure that those are Rroma sent back from France, they would have no legal right to stop them, unless there is a restriction court order against them in Romania or Hungary. It might be a restriction to re-enter France, but not a restriction to quit Romania or enter Hungary, hence Schengen space. This is how it works...
How can I put it: we have absolutely the same right and possibility of movement now, when we are out of Schengen area, and we (decent people and, unfortunately, criminals) are using it every day. Lifting restrictions will change absolutely nothing. The only difference is that now we have to show our IDs at the Schengen border. But that won't keep immigration and criminality out, isn't it ?
Lifting the restrictions will only save us from something we consider humiliating, but will not change or improve anything, 'cause we are free birds already. (Sorry, I couldn't resist, it's one of my favorite songs .)
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Old January 19th, 2014, 02:25 PM   #9375
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Very well put nenea_hartia

I am in Germany, working and paying taxes, as well as my gf. But if I would get unemployed, until I get a new job, I will surely apply for unemployment benefits, if you worked for 2 years in Germany and 5 years in Romania, you definitely are worth it.

Anyway, I got here without Schengen, and many thousand other Romanians, we are highly qualified people, we have high salaries, even for German standards, and it's not our fault there are not enough qualified locals to take those jobs...
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Old January 19th, 2014, 02:42 PM   #9376
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Very well put nenea_hartia

I am in Germany, working and paying taxes, as well as my gf. But if I would get unemployed, until I get a new job, I will surely apply for unemployment benefits, if you worked for 2 years in Germany and 5 years in Romania, you definitely are worth it.

Anyway, I got here without Schengen, and many thousand other Romanians, we are highly qualified people, we have high salaries, even for German standards, and it's not our fault there are not enough qualified locals to take those jobs...
Also ridiculous are conditions over arresting war criminals in former Yugoslavia countries. Even if we know, they will end up in luxurious jail in Haag playing football and cooking pasta.

http://spravy.pravda.sk/svet/clanok/...ej-juhoslavii/

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Old January 19th, 2014, 03:32 PM   #9377
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Now, at border with Hungary, you show ID or passport, it doesn't take more then 30 seconds, some people are only waved to pass, no ID shown at all !!!
Isn't it against EU laws? They should at least check ID and license plate, to make sure that persons and vehicles don't belong to the "police blacklist". The outer Schengen border should be controlled, especially if RO and BG cannot patrol well their borders with UA, MD and TR. I crossed many times the SLO-HR border and also the I-SLO border before 2007 and all cars were stopped and ID checked, not because we looked like criminals but because it was the standard procedure.
This weakness in enforcing border controls force other country to increase their safety measures. I often see Polizia, Carabinieri and Guardia di Finanza at the former custom booths at Fernetti\Sezana (I-SLO border) and they usually stop trucks or vans with East Europe plates.
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Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Romania has even begun to build cyclist roads towards the border, Hungary the same, there are other local roads between communities where you are not allowed to pass, and those communities loose because of that. If RO were in Schengen, bus lines could be opened, etc, like you can for example to travel from Germany into France with local transport.
There are also closed roads between GR and BG for the same reasons.
Why they can't open checkpoint along these roads? At least for locals. Before Schengen, many small I-SLO or I-CH border crossings were opened to locals only, now of course to everybody.

I'm not saying that RO and BG should never be allowed into Schengen, but, until they are, they should enforce border controls. Otherwise they demostrate being untrustable for a future Schengen accession.

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Originally Posted by nenea_hartia View Post

So Croatia is not a problem if it controls its borders, but Romania and Bulgaria are, although they are controlling their borders already (according to EU Commission both countries have fulfilled all technical requirements).

So you see...
I was not saying: RO and BG: problematic countries and HR: normal country
It's more related to the geographical location: RO and BG are on the edge of the Europe, thus they are the gateway for many illegal immigrants from Asia, Middle East and former Soviet states. So they should join Schengen only if they show enough authority to control their borders. For the same reason Cyprus is excluded from Schengen, Greece is in it just because it wasn't politically acceptable to exclude a country that is in EU for 30+ years.
Croatia is in the centre of Europe, far away from Africa, the Middle East and the former Soviet states, so it isn't a usual gateway for illegal immigration.

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
They still have. The Netherlands is one of the biggest investors in Romania.

Unfortunately many people see Romanians as people like those who come in boats from Africa, but then legal. A relatively small part of the population is extremely ignorant and uneducated on economic and EU matters, but they tend to dominate the media. Just read those comments at news sites, the Netherlands would be doomed if everyone was as stupid and ignorant as those who comment there.
I remember an interview to some Italian students and one of the question was: "What's a place in the world where you would never go?" More than one said: Romania. It shows how a small vision of the world they had, they didn't know that there are a lot of places in the world where you can be killed or kidnapped as soon as you leave home or when millions of people are starving. It looks like they ignored the existence of Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan, Colombia, Nigeria, Congo,...
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Old January 19th, 2014, 03:43 PM   #9378
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The outer Schengen border should be controlled, especially if RO and BG cannot patrol well their borders with UA, MD and TR.
Well, guess what, RO&BG spent millions of euros exactly for that, like it was required in the joint agreement to join Schengen. So they do control the "future?" Schengen borders well. If Western countries doubt that, they should send people to inspect and/or help.

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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I remember an interview to some Italian students and one of the question was: "What's a place in the world where you would never go?" More than one said: Romania. It shows how a small vision of the world they had, they didn't know that there are a lot of places in the world where you can be killed or kidnapped as soon as you leave home or when millions of people are starving. It looks like they ignored the existence of Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan, Colombia, Nigeria, Congo,...
Well, that is really sad
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Old January 19th, 2014, 03:52 PM   #9379
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The main problem with Romania and Bulgaria joining the Schengen treaty is the influx of new criminals.
And how do you think border control will stop them? Unless they have concrete strong evidence that these people are travelling to get involved in crime, they can't be turned back. It's just a hassle for normal people like visas. They didn't stop a single criminal (they get fake passports, they bribe for visas etc.) but they exist to make someone feel good and comfortable thinking they are stopping crime. Yeah right. The same goes for border control, what kind of a criminal will be put off by something that is essentially a glance at his documents?

Simply put Schengen has nothing to do with migration control within the EU.

And I don't know why you think that the current borders are sealed? Thousands of asylum seekers and illegal migrants bound for west pass through Serbia every year. Where do you think they come from? They come from Macedonia, and how do you think they get to Macedonia. Well via Greece. And where do you think they continue their journey to the west? Yes it's via Hungary. While Greeks might have a case in saying that keeping their complicated border sealed is difficult, there is also a large element of not giving a toss about these people because they know they won't stay in Greece. When it comes to Hungary, it's just the second one, they know very well all of these people will stay there for a few hours maximum, that's how long it takes to reach Austria, so why bother. The most they bother is to ask them for some bribe. And spectacularly arrest 1/10 of those that get through to keep the EU content.

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Originally Posted by Jack_Frost View Post
yes, if i am not mistaken we have 4 roads which are currently useless because there were no border checkpoints built.

roads like this for example: http://magyarnarancs.hu/kismagyarors...lezartak-82842

in a few months M43 will be a road like this too
What is stopping the two countries from opening a border crossing on that road?
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Old January 19th, 2014, 04:02 PM   #9380
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Isn't it against EU laws? They should at least check ID and license plate, to make sure that persons and vehicles don't belong to the "police blacklist".
Since Romania joined the EU in 2007, I crossed the RO-HU border a lot of times. Not even once was my ID or car registration checked in the computer to see if I'm not on a black list.

Usually I give them my ID card and the passenger's, but usually he doesn't even check to see if I gave him one ID card / passenger (doesn't even count how many people are in the car and how many IDs he got).

Few times (1 or 2 times) I was just waved through, without stopping.

Only 2 times I was asked to open the car's trunk, but the border officer just looked for 5 seconds and told me that I can leave.

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The outer Schengen border should be controlled, especially if RO and BG cannot patrol well their borders with UA, MD and TR.
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Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Well, guess what, RO&BG spent millions of euros exactly for that, like it was required in the joint agreement to join Schengen. So they do control the "future?" Schengen borders well. If Western countries doubt that, they should send people to inspect and/or help.
The Romanian outer-Schengen borders (with Serbia, Ukaine and Rep. of Moldova) are well enforced. This was also stated by the EU Commission after they send some people to inspect how we protect our borders. Romania fulfilled all the requirements of the Schengen treaty and everybody knows this. Now it's just a political game.

---------

Anyway, this 30-seconds border controls don't bother me. The problem is before Christmas or in August when a lot of Romanians that work in Western EU come back during their holiday. Then you can be stuck in a 5-km long line of cars waiting for that 30-seconds check at the border. This is really annoying especially for locals (like myself). Here are some pictures shot by me at the Nădlac/Nagylak border crossing between Romania and Hungary, in August when many Romanian came home for holidays:









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