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Old March 5th, 2014, 03:49 AM   #9881
Verso
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Exactly, we sucked all the best and brightest people out of Europe
You mean they (Canadians) sucked you out of Europe?
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Old March 5th, 2014, 03:56 AM   #9882
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Sure, now we're dark side
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Old March 5th, 2014, 09:43 AM   #9883
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No, it's completely different. East Germans built the wall to keep their own citizen within the hell\prison that was the DDR, while Americans built the wall to prevent illegal immigration from Mexico.
I wish that the EU would take the immigration issue as seriously as the USA do (allowing only people with job and house, other than political and war refugees).
False. The Berlin wall was built to keep the bad bad capitalists out of prospective Eastern Germany so as the Iron Curtain was built to keep them out of prospering East Bloc. Now I can still imagine the huge number of possible refugees to cross the borders from underdeveloped West.
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Old March 5th, 2014, 10:34 PM   #9884
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International border crossing Slovakia - Ukraine:

Ubľa - Malyj Bereznyj








Vyšné Nemecké - Uzghorod






Pedestrian crossing Mali Selmenci - Veľké Slemence






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Old March 5th, 2014, 10:43 PM   #9885
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Today I crossed the border between Romania & Hungary at Vărșand / Gyula (map). Usually at the RO-HU border crossing they just look 5 seconds on your ID cards and you can leave. This time it was different.

Entering Hungary: the Romanian border police officer looked on the IDs and asked the view the car's trunk. Then he passed the IDs to the Hungarian border police officer, who entered with them in his booth and stayed inside for 3-4 minutes (don't know what he was doing because door and window were closed and you can't see inside (mirror-type glass). I guess he was searching me and my passengers in their database to see if we're not wanted for something. After 3-4 minutes he just gave me the IDs and we could go.

Entering Romania: gave the IDs to the Hungarian officer who also asked to see the trunk. The Romanian officer asked us where we were coming from while checking the IDs. I left after 1 minute.
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Old March 6th, 2014, 12:11 AM   #9886
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What are the devices besides the roadways in the 4th picture? (Between the yellow/black poles) They can be seen at more border crossings. I suppose they are scanners of some kind, but what do they scan for?
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Old March 6th, 2014, 12:18 AM   #9887
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What are the devices besides the roadways in the 4th picture? (Between the yellow/black poles) They can be seen at more border crossings. I suppose they are scanners of some kind, but what do they scan for?
Radiation detectors, if I'm not mistaken. I think Croatia has quite a few of them on the Bosnian/Montenegrin/Serbian borders.

I know both Slovakia and Germany have portable radiation detectors too - the Germans have one that seems to permanently live at the Frankfurter Tor rest area (that in reality seems to be exclusively used by Russians buying stuff). I think, if I'm not mistaken, the Slovakians also have one that lives at the old Bratislava-Berg border crossing.
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Old March 6th, 2014, 02:11 AM   #9888
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Only the immigration of educated people, who work and are willing to integrate. This kind of immigrants are welcome there. In a world where the economy is shrinking, the unemployment is growing, I don't see how an uncontrolled mass immigration of people without money, job, house,... can improve economy.
It's not a matter of racism, it's a matter of numbers. If Italian population will grow from 60 to 100 million in few years, its resources won't increase proportionally and there will be less wealth, especially if those 40 extra million people don't bring wealth but take it away from others.
It's funny you've mentioned that, just like the same argument applied in Switzerland during the mass immigration campaign, mostly against EU migrants . Especially, in Ticino (Italian speaking part for those not familiar) which voted massively (nearly 70%) in favor of restrictions during the last referendum. Seems that Ticinese have lots of problems with Italians "frontalieri", according to them generally: under-payed, they are taking jobs off the locals, welfare abuses, criminality increasing, money going out of CH, causing huge traffic jams and pollution, and not wishing, by any mean, to "integrate" into Swiss society, moreover, they grew of 50% in just 5 years and, are even more massively growing due to Italian economical shrinking and huge unemployment, etc. This is how the cat becomes a mouse again .

A link you may find interesting: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=37943558


Italians "frontalieri" creating traffic jams on the border in Chiasso.

[IMG]http://t2.************/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKxxELGCkA_K9-Q6c78bKZ0opt9hykPjUqdFW1tmS-dp-DR7bOgQ[/IMG]
SVP Ticino party "propaganda" poster in 2010.
Today they are more than 60'000 "frontalieri" in Ticino.

Last edited by John Maynard; March 6th, 2014 at 04:06 PM.
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Old March 6th, 2014, 11:03 PM   #9889
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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
It's funny you've mentioned that, just like the same argument applied in Switzerland during the mass immigration campaign, mostly against EU migrants . Especially, in Ticino (Italian speaking part for those not familiar) which voted massively (nearly 70%) in favor of restrictions during the last referendum. Seems that Ticinese have lots of problems with Italians "frontalieri", according to them generally: under-payed, they are taking jobs off the locals, welfare abuses, criminality increasing, money going out of CH, causing huge traffic jams and pollution, and not wishing, by any mean, to "integrate" into Swiss society, moreover, they grew of 50% in just 5 years and, are even more massively growing due to Italian economical shrinking and huge unemployment, etc. This is how the cat becomes a mouse again .

A link you may find interesting: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=37943558


Italians "frontalieri" creating traffic jams on the border in Chiasso.

SVP Ticino party "propaganda" poster in 2010.
Today they are more than 60'000 "frontalieri" in Ticino.
I'm fully aware of this.

As I wrote before, it's not a racial\nationalistic issue (Swiss vs Italians, West Europeans vs East Europeans, Europeans vs Africans,...) but a numeric one. Imagine 500,000 people moving from Rome to Milan in a short time. They would surely create problems because Milan has not a sufficient job market, housing, services, infrastructures for so many people.

The example of Europeans colonizating North America is very different. North America was a wild and sparsely populated land so more immigrants = more developement. Immigrants arriving in America to start a new life founded new cities from scratch, plowed virgin lands, discovered mines and built factories, creating job opportunities for many other people (they destroyed native cultures and the environment, but that's another story). They didn't came to the America to ask being hired by someone else or to life off social benefits.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old March 6th, 2014, 11:33 PM   #9890
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I'm fully aware of this.

As I wrote before, it's not a racial\nationalistic issue (Swiss vs Italians, West Europeans vs East Europeans, Europeans vs Africans,...) but a numeric one. Imagine 500,000 people moving from Rome to Milan in a short time. They would surely create problems because Milan has not a sufficient job market, housing, services, infrastructures for so many people.
We are now totally out of topic !

I didn't want to be rude, but if you consider ex-Eastern Bloc (in fact, now Central) European countries, you'll see an outrageous massive emigration and a clear concentration of its people into 5 or 6 Western European countries.
Are you saying that all the Schengen idea should be abandoned?
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Old March 6th, 2014, 11:54 PM   #9891
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Are you saying that all the Schengen idea should be abandoned?
No, of course. Differences between poorer (East) and richer (West) European countries decreased a lot in the last 20 years and will continue to decrease. Without Schengen life in many border areas would be a nightmare, with long waiting lines just to get on the other side of the town and many local crossings closed forcing people to make long detours to main border crossings. Freight shipping would also became more expensive and time-consuming, with trains or trucks that must stop at 3-4 borders in 1000km.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 04:34 AM   #9892
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I'm fully aware of this.

As I wrote before, it's not a racial\nationalistic issue (Swiss vs Italians, West Europeans vs East Europeans, Europeans vs Africans,...) but a numeric one. Imagine 500,000 people moving from Rome to Milan in a short time. They would surely create problems because Milan has not a sufficient job market, housing, services, infrastructures for so many people.
This is no problem because of free market. If no jobs, people don't come, if too many people are there and not enough jobs, jobs get created, not enough housing, they will build them and there are the new jobs. It is same as the Europe to America thing, there was nothing in US, there were no jobs, no housing, no services and no infrastructure. They had space, but Italy (or any normal EU country) has plenty space too.

"Benefit tourism" is something else, but really, why have those benefits? It is okay to subsidize your own lazy people but not lazy from elsewhere, might as well tell them all to go get a job And anyway, I am not sure if the kind of lazy people that get benefits, have enough ingenuity and drive to immigrate...
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Old March 7th, 2014, 05:26 AM   #9893
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The infrastructure on the Gibraltar/Spanish border really is quite shocking. Neither side has anywhere near enough capacity for the amount of traffic that crosses daily, and the EU completely failed to bang their heads together when they had the chance.

There really should be a modern joint border station built in this wasteland here - http://goo.gl/maps/8XIXv . The current arrangements are nowhere near satisfactory enough - both Spain and Gibraltar do a terrible job of actually checking the identity of travellers. Spain in particular needs to start doing a proper job with conducting Schengen checks.

Of course, the most sensible solution would be for Gibraltar to join Schengen. There are already border controls between the UK and Gibraltar - so there's no reason whatsoever for Gibraltar to remain outside the Schengen area.

Incidentally, why on earth couldn't Spain and Gibraltar come to an agreement to at least have an exit to La Linea from the airport? I understand that building the Spainsh annexe might have been problematic - but would it really have been so difficult to come to an agreement to have someone from the Guardia Civil based next to an exit door? It would only take a small container...
what? are you crazy? how are smugglers supposed to get their weed into the eu and their untaxed gibraltar liquor into marocco then?
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Old March 8th, 2014, 12:21 AM   #9894
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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
I didn't want to be rude, but if you consider ex-Eastern Bloc (in fact, now Central) European countries, you'll see an outrageous massive emigration and a clear concentration of its people into 5 or 6 Western European countries.
Are you saying that all the Schengen idea should be abandoned?
Schengen has nothing to do with the freedom of people to work in other countries.

Anyway, it isn't an 'outrageous' amount of emigration, nor are they clearly concentrated into 5 or 6 countries.

The point is that the EU is a union. No-one cares if someone moves from a poor Appalachian town to New York, nor should anyone care if someone moves from Bulgaria to England.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 02:50 AM   #9895
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Hungary - USSR border Záhony -> Csap / Chop back in 1991.
Picture shows vehicle of the last Soviet military member leaving Hungarian territory on June 19th.
Source: hir24.hu

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Old March 8th, 2014, 04:55 AM   #9896
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Let's just hope they don't come back...
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Old March 8th, 2014, 06:46 PM   #9897
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Hungary - Austria crossing at Sopron back in 1977
Source: sopronanno.hu



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Old March 8th, 2014, 06:48 PM   #9898
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remove double post ...
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Old March 8th, 2014, 08:47 PM   #9899
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Hungary - USSR border Záhony -> Csap / Chop back in 1991.
Could Hungarians (and people from PL, CS, RO etc) easily cross that border to their eastern neighbour in Soviet times?
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Old March 8th, 2014, 09:06 PM   #9900
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Could Hungarians (and people from PL, CS, RO etc) easily cross that border to their eastern neighbour in Soviet times?
No, absolutely not. Unlike the comparably easy traffic between "peer" Socialist bloc countries (H, CS, PL, DDR, ...), travels to the USSR were strictly regulated. You needed a visa and IIRC individual tourism was not permitted, only via organized tours. Plus there was a point somewhere east of Moscow, eastward of which no foreigner whatsoever was permitted to proceed.

This was not a tragedy, as most Hungarians didn't have a big touristic interest in the USSR anyway.
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