daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 6th, 2014, 12:33 AM   #10061
Alex_ZR
Registered User
 
Alex_ZR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Zrenjanin
Posts: 2,903
Likes (Received): 3993

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
The one you posted is a large one, I see there are also some pictures on Panoramio.

For the other ones I didn't find much.
I ask because I want to know what to expect, since I'm planning to cross exactly those in my Balkan trip late May.
Preševo is one of the four largest and crowded Serbian border crossings, but since there is agreement between Serbia and Macedonia that their citizens can cross the border just with their IDs, I hope there will be no queues as it can be during summer season. I wish you luck!
Alex_ZR está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 6th, 2014, 12:47 AM   #10062
Eulanthe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes (Received): 411

A very fascinating video showing the situation at Karasovici border crossing (HR-YU, modern day MNE) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzbu3bt5RX8

I may be wrong, but I think this video shows the situation on the HR border in general. Croatia never closed any border crossings during the conflicts there, which is why both border police and Customs are shown working there. I'm pretty certain the closure of the border was on the YU side.

I don't think this border was actually opened up until a few years later, against the wishes of the YU Federal government. I don't have any information as to the alternative possibilities to travel from HR into YU - I think it may have been possible to go (after Dayton) to go via Treblinje, but I suspect very few Croats would have considered such a thing.
Eulanthe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 10:42 AM   #10063
Palance
Autosnelwegen.net
 
Palance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Palancedrecht, NL
Posts: 1,073
Likes (Received): 277

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
A very fascinating video showing the situation at Karasovici border crossing (HR-YU, modern day MNE) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzbu3bt5RX8
I know, I showed you that video here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
I may be wrong, but I think this video shows the situation on the HR border in general. Croatia never closed any border crossings during the conflicts there, which is why both border police and Customs are shown working there. I'm pretty certain the closure of the border was on the YU side.
I think that a border crossing should be considered as closed if one or both parties close it. So Debeli Brijeg was totally closed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
I don't think this border was actually opened up until a few years later, against the wishes of the YU Federal government. I don't have any information as to the alternative possibilities to travel from HR into YU - I think it may have been possible to go (after Dayton) to go via Treblinje, but I suspect very few Croats would have considered such a thing.
First short openings were around Christmas 1998 to let familiies from both sides of the border celebrate it together, finally opening was in 1999.

Croatian newssite about the opening in 1999: http://vijesti.hrt.hr/arhiv/99/01/22/HRT0050.html
__________________
http://www.autosnelwegen.net/

Last edited by Palance; April 6th, 2014 at 10:48 AM.
Palance no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 01:42 PM   #10064
TommyLopez
Registered User
 
TommyLopez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague
Posts: 93
Likes (Received): 41

Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
I crossed the Como-Chiasso border last year. Ironically, it was the Italians who checked every single screw of my car (I reckon that being Spanish and in my 20s I am quite likely to be carrying some weed).



Yes, it's a custom thing. As you said, Switzerland is within the Schengen zone, but you have to go through custom controls.

Road-wise, Switzerland being part of the Schengen agreement means little. You still have to go through 2 different checkpoints and you're likely to be stopped and checked. Minor roads are a different story, I crossed the old Perly douane four times and encountered no officers.
True, on the Chiasso-Como it was the Italians customs officers (approximately 10 of them) who just stayed next to the road and talking, that's why Italy is almost bankrupting
TommyLopez no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 03:20 PM   #10065
Eulanthe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes (Received): 411

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palance View Post
I know, I showed you that video here
I forgot about that!

What's interesting about that video is when the EC monitor passes the Croatian checkpoint and heads down the road. He appears to be unchallenged when passing the presumably Yugoslavian hut - I wonder where they actually closed the border?

Quote:
I think that a border crossing should be considered as closed if one or both parties close it. So Debeli Brijeg was totally closed
Hmm, there is a parallel with the Gibraltar border - from the Spanish point of view, the border was closed. The Gibraltarian point of view was that the border was open for business. I actually checked with a local in Gibraltar, and he told me that both immigration and Customs went to work as usual then in case the Spanish opened the border.

Quote:
First short openings were around Christmas 1998 to let familiies from both sides of the border celebrate it together, finally opening was in 1999.

Croatian newssite about the opening in 1999: http://vijesti.hrt.hr/arhiv/99/01/22/HRT0050.html
Thank you! That's an interesting piece of information.

I did read somewhere that
Eulanthe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 04:43 PM   #10066
Palance
Autosnelwegen.net
 
Palance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Palancedrecht, NL
Posts: 1,073
Likes (Received): 277

On the other hand, I cannot find when the border controls had been established on both sides (even when the borders were closed). I have only read that this route was inaccessible from the late 1991 because of bombing and shooting, but not before the Croats managed to put a sign there. Unfortunately I have not found any picture of those times.

For Neum (HR-BIH) I could find that the border controls were in function from 1993.
__________________
http://www.autosnelwegen.net/
Palance no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 05:31 PM   #10067
volodaaaa
Registered User
 
volodaaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 3,230
Likes (Received): 1748

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
The one you posted is a large one, I see there are also some pictures on Panoramio.

For the other ones I didn't find much.
I ask because I want to know what to expect, since I'm planning to cross exactly those in my Balkan trip late May.
If you want some information about that border crossing, let me know. I made it several times to Greece for holiday and E-75 between Bratislava and Thessaloniki is indeed familiar to me.
__________________
Been/drove my car in: SK, CZ, D, A, H, PL, I, F, E, RSM, CH, FL, SLO, HR, SRB, BiH, MK, GR, BG, RO

volodaaaa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 05:35 PM   #10068
volodaaaa
Registered User
 
volodaaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 3,230
Likes (Received): 1748

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_ZR View Post
Preševo is one of the four largest and crowded Serbian border crossings, but since there is agreement between Serbia and Macedonia that their citizens can cross the border just with their IDs, I hope there will be no queues as it can be during summer season. I wish you luck!
In summer season, it is bearable to cross it only at night. Long congestions occur predominantly during day. In contrast, a much worse situation is on Horgoš - Rözske which is full all the time
__________________
Been/drove my car in: SK, CZ, D, A, H, PL, I, F, E, RSM, CH, FL, SLO, HR, SRB, BiH, MK, GR, BG, RO

volodaaaa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 06:10 PM   #10069
cinxxx
I ♥ Timişoara
 
cinxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: München
Posts: 22,234
Likes (Received): 18298

I should cross from MK to SRB (Tabanovce/Preševo) on the last Saturday of May, sometime before noon I guess.

I won't really be in a hurry or sort, my destination would be Timisoara, RO, nothing else planned on the way.
cinxxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 06:32 PM   #10070
volodaaaa
Registered User
 
volodaaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 3,230
Likes (Received): 1748

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
I should cross from MK to SRB (Tabanovce/Preševo) on the last Saturday of May, sometime before noon I guess.

I won't really be in a hurry or sort, my destination would be Timisoara, RO, nothing else planned on the way.
Don't forget to prepare 5 € banknotes for Macedonian toll. The tollbooth staff is somehow totally crazy over 5 € banknotes

Last summer, I was about to pay 1 € road toll on first tollbooth. The employee refuse Euro-coins and let me choose between paying in local currency (denars) or in 5 € banknotes. Since I had not got local currency, I decided to pay in Euro. But the only thing I had was the 20 € banknote The employee gave me back 3x5 € banknote and the rest in denars (I was convinced it will be the exact amount of denars to pay on next tollboths and also to pay the journey back, which was not true ). I was missing 10 denars on my way back home (had 20 instead of 30). Respective staff member offered me to pay in 5 € banknotes (while the given-back money would be in Denars) or to pay in denars I had insufficient amount of. Finally I was allowed to pay by my Visa card. Now I have 20 denars and I am definitely ready to use it on my journey to holiday this year

But my dad (he took the same journey month later) ended up even worse The lowest banknote he had was 100 € You should not imagine what he got back
__________________
Been/drove my car in: SK, CZ, D, A, H, PL, I, F, E, RSM, CH, FL, SLO, HR, SRB, BiH, MK, GR, BG, RO

volodaaaa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 08:17 PM   #10071
Kanadzie
Registered User
 
Kanadzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,373
Likes (Received): 747

Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post

But my dad (he took the same journey month later) ended up even worse The lowest banknote he had was 100 € You should not imagine what he got back
A smile and "ok thank you, please go now"
Kanadzie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 08:43 PM   #10072
Autoputevi kao hobi
srBska Kraljica
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Vladicin Han
Posts: 4,240
Likes (Received): 4063

http://www.google.rs/url?sa=i&rct=j&...96892508543166

This how "Presevo" border station in Serbia looks .
Autoputevi kao hobi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 09:13 PM   #10073
Eulanthe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes (Received): 411

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palance View Post
On the other hand, I cannot find when the border controls had been established on both sides (even when the borders were closed). I have only read that this route was inaccessible from the late 1991 because of bombing and shooting, but not before the Croats managed to put a sign there. Unfortunately I have not found any picture of those times.
I know from my various books on Yugoslavia that the Customs and immigration controls controls were more or less implemented upon the declaration of independence. There are references (such as in Misha Glenny's excellent book) about this subject, I will try and find them and post them. But the Croats were certainly controlling the borders as of the day of independence.

The signs themselves - I'm not quite sure. The internal borders of Yugoslavia are always described as existing on paper but being of no relevance and not being easy to find, which suggests that they didn't mark them. Slovenia definitely had Republika Slovenia signs a few days after independence, as there are pictures online of the Slovenia signs lying on the ground next to SFR Yugoslavia signs.

If I was guessing, then I suspect that when Slovenia and Croatia changed the name of the republics to drop the Socialist part, they may already have erected such signs.

Both Slovenia and Croatia were already responsible for collecting Customs duties at the border, so it wouldn't have been difficult for them to simply post some extra Customs workers to the relevant borders.

As for the war, yes, the whole Konvale area was occupied. The Serb-Montenegrin forces left in October 1992, with the area at Karasovici being under the supervision of the UN forces. My feeling is that at least the Croatians would have re-established a border crossing at that point. Another clue from the video is that the buildings are painted white and blue, in the style of other border checkpoints, along with the plaques on the wall - so certainly, the Croatians were treating it as a full checkpoint.

If my understanding of Yugoslavian constitutional theory is correct (and it is an interest of mine!) - then Croatia would have imposed the controls immediately upon independence, whereas Yugoslavia wouldn't have imposed any controls until they signed the treaty of normalising relations in 1996. The Montenegrin guard hut is clearly visible in the video, but apparently unmanned.

Quote:
For Neum (HR-BIH) I could find that the border controls were in function from 1993.
That's interesting in itself, given that Neum would have been firmly under the control of Herceg-Bosna at the time. I'm only guessing, but I suspect the controls may have been to prevent refugees from leaving Bosnia more than anything else. Certainly, plenty was smuggled into Bosnia through Croatia at the time.
Eulanthe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 09:42 PM   #10074
Palance
Autosnelwegen.net
 
Palance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Palancedrecht, NL
Posts: 1,073
Likes (Received): 277

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
That's interesting in itself, given that Neum would have been firmly under the control of Herceg-Bosna at the time. I'm only guessing, but I suspect the controls may have been to prevent refugees from leaving Bosnia more than anything else. Certainly, plenty was smuggled into Bosnia through Croatia at the time.
This source (in Croatian) says that the beginning of the border checks started 19 May 1993. Nothing about Herceg-Bosna however. Are there any pics from HB-borders anyway?
__________________
http://www.autosnelwegen.net/
Palance no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 09:52 PM   #10075
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,449
Likes (Received): 2183

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
The signs themselves - I'm not quite sure. The internal borders of Yugoslavia are always described as existing on paper but being of no relevance and not being easy to find, which suggests that they didn't mark them. Slovenia definitely had Republika Slovenia signs a few days after independence, as there are pictures online of the Slovenia signs lying on the ground next to SFR Yugoslavia signs.
Yes, I posted those pics a while ago. They are taken at the Pesek border crossing between Italy and Slovenia.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=8109
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 10:23 PM   #10076
Alex_ZR
Registered User
 
Alex_ZR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Zrenjanin
Posts: 2,903
Likes (Received): 3993

Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
In summer season, it is bearable to cross it only at night. Long congestions occur predominantly during day. In contrast, a much worse situation is on Horgoš - Rözske which is full all the time
Horgoš-Röszke development during 20th century:

1940





At that time Hungary used to drive on left (they changed it in 1941).

1960s







__________________

volodaaaa, Attus, Zagor666, Blue Griffin liked this post
Alex_ZR está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 11:02 PM   #10077
Eulanthe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes (Received): 411

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palance View Post
This source (in Croatian) says that the beginning of the border checks started 19 May 1993. Nothing about Herceg-Bosna however. Are there any pics from HB-borders anyway?
There's nothing in my books, not even a description. There are some claims on the Wikipedia page that Herceg-Bosna wasn't a parastate like the Serbian ones, as it never declared independence from BiH. It did name itself the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, but unlike the RSK, it never held a referendum on secession. Croatia was always really touchy about how the situation there was perceived, and it seems possible that they deliberately refrained from trying to declare a parastate there.

The RSK ones are described as having giant Serbian flags flying above huts used for the purpose of border control. In their constitutional theory, they were an integral part of Serbia.

All this doesn't answer the question of who set up the controls in Neum. It wouldn't have been the Republic of BiH, as they were at war with Herceg-Bosna at the time. But Herceg-Bosna setting up the controls doesn't make much sense too, unless they were trying to gain revenue from Customs controls there.

Of course, maybe the controls were simply set up by Croatia, which always pretended not to have anything to do with the chaos in Bosnia.

is it possible that the Yugoslav border crossing above was the same one used until recently? I've seen a picture somewhere of the old Horgos crossing that still exists, and it only has two lanes each way.
Eulanthe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2014, 11:56 PM   #10078
Alex_ZR
Registered User
 
Alex_ZR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Zrenjanin
Posts: 2,903
Likes (Received): 3993

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
is it possible that the Yugoslav border crossing above was the same one used until recently? I've seen a picture somewhere of the old Horgos crossing that still exists, and it only has two lanes each way.
Old border crossings (at both sides) still exist, but abandoned since new ones were built at the motorway.

Old Roszke crossing:



Old Horgoš crossing:



http://goo.gl/maps/wGKrz
Alex_ZR está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old April 7th, 2014, 12:31 AM   #10079
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,087
Likes (Received): 4749

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
If I was guessing, then I suspect that when Slovenia and Croatia changed the name of the republics to drop the Socialist part, they may already have erected such signs.
In 1990? I doubt. I think they were erected right after the declaration of independence in 1991.
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 7th, 2014, 12:41 AM   #10080
volodaaaa
Registered User
 
volodaaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 3,230
Likes (Received): 1748

It was 2006 when I crossed the old Horgoš border crossing for the last time. I remember old wooden gates with Yugoslav tricolour. And the tour de parking lot since the motorway was under construction
__________________
Been/drove my car in: SK, CZ, D, A, H, PL, I, F, E, RSM, CH, FL, SLO, HR, SRB, BiH, MK, GR, BG, RO

volodaaaa no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
highways, motorways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium