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Old August 6th, 2014, 10:18 PM   #10981
nestvaran
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Here's a pic of that bridge also taken in 1994 (blown up in early 1992 whilst refugees crossing to Croatia)



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Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
More photos like that please
Would you be so kind to tell what is funny in that picture?

Last edited by nestvaran; August 6th, 2014 at 10:23 PM.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 10:29 PM   #10982
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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Interestingly, along the border in Gabela, there's a street called Marka Marulica. The whole street only has one barrier next to a hairdresser - http://prafulla.net/?attachment_id=482553 - this one. The rest of the street has numerous streets leading into BiH, and none of them are controlled in any way. From hanging around there, it seems that the EU border is wide open at that point. I'm not sure if it's actually possible to go anywhere on the BiH side, though.
Interesting indeed! I found a couple of articles on the subject, here is one:
http://www.dw.de/ulica-na-granici-iz...ske/a-17233792

Google translate does quite a decent job but if someone that knows the language reads the article and posts a summary here, it would be appreciated.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 11:30 PM   #10983
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Former border crossing between Russia and Germany (1815-1914) in central-western Poland

It is exactly 100 years since the outbreak of the I World War, so I wish to show you a very particular border crossing - it is located at Borzykowo (on the way number 442 between Pyzdry and Września, some 70 kilometres east of Poznań and 240 kilometres west of Warsaw). Since the Congress of Vienna (1815) until the beginning of the I WW (1914) it served as a westernmost border crossing (and point) between Russia and Prussia (and later united Germany). For us Poles it is a sad reminder of times when our country was erased from the map of Europe. Territories on both sides of this former border were Polish ever since the beginning of our statehood in the 10 century until the partitions of Poland (1793) and since my country regained independence in 1918.



On the right - former German part of Poland and a German border guard, on the left - former Russian part of Poland and a Russian border guard.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 11:50 PM   #10984
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How about the waiting at the border crossing Kula Norinska on the A1 to Bosnia and the M6 in Bosnia at the border crossing near Gabela to Croatia?
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Old August 6th, 2014, 11:51 PM   #10985
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Ill drive there next week
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Old August 7th, 2014, 11:50 AM   #10986
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Speaking of Brcko, I saw the devastation on the Croatian side last week - I was driving along and couldn't understand why there were piles of broken wood and rubbish next to almost every house, along with many houses looking like victims of war. Then it dawned on me that the flood had really destroyed that area Brcko in comparison is fine.

Pascal, avoid the M6 crossing into Bosnia and use the A10 Novo Selo crossing instead.

f.ostman - As I understand the situation, locals living there have passes that permit them to cross the border at any point along the street. I think the street is quite unique in the European Union in that the entire street is treated as one big border crossing - if you have a pass, you're entitled to cross there at any point. Otherwise, locals must go through the border crossing, and anyone not from the local area must go through Doljani / Novo Selo.

From what I understand, there is pretty much freedom of movement there for locals. My own observation showed that people were crossing the border freely, and it seemed that some cars with German plates were crossing there and avoiding the border control. What was very surprising to me is that we were free to walk around the entire area - the border seemingly isn't marked, so it's very easy to stray across the border by mistake.

I don't know what would happen if they caught you crossing there without a pass, but without border markings, it's hard to see how they could justify fining me. What's even more odd is that there's no signs warning you about the street being a border crossing - if I was following a GPS unit for instance, there might be no warning of actually crossing an international border.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 11:54 AM   #10987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Speaking of Brcko, I saw the devastation on the Croatian side last week - I was driving along and couldn't understand why there were piles of broken wood and rubbish next to almost every house, along with many houses looking like victims of war. Then it dawned on me that the flood had really destroyed that area Brcko in comparison is fine.
This year flood unfortunately...
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Old August 7th, 2014, 12:07 PM   #10988
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Not sure if this will work, but I found this - http://www.klix.ba/forum/grbavica-vr....html#p7451769

Third picture in that post shows the "Brotherhood and Unity Bridge" border crossing into the Republika Srpska - it's in Sarajevo, in the Grbavica district.

http://www.klix.ba/forum/grbavica-vr....html#p7451790 - also here, you can see the border crossing post.

It's very interesting, because I didn't know that they maintained such formal border crossings with the Republic of Bosnia and Hercegovina - you can even see on the sign (in French) that it's a border crossing. Does anyone know how long they maintained border controls for?
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Old August 7th, 2014, 12:31 PM   #10989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Not sure if this will work, but I found this - http://www.klix.ba/forum/grbavica-vr....html#p7451769

Third picture in that post shows the "Brotherhood and Unity Bridge" border crossing into the Republika Srpska - it's in Sarajevo, in the Grbavica district.

http://www.klix.ba/forum/grbavica-vr....html#p7451790 - also here, you can see the border crossing post.

It's very interesting, because I didn't know that they maintained such formal border crossings with the Republic of Bosnia and Hercegovina - you can even see on the sign (in French) that it's a border crossing. Does anyone know how long they maintained border controls for?
The sign was more for propaganda purposes.
It was a war time checkpoint never a boarder crossing it was used for exchanging prisoners and civilians. The later pictures are from the reunification of Sarajevo.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 12:56 PM   #10990
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Originally Posted by Alien x View Post
The sign was more for propaganda purposes.
I've found a bit more about it, and it seems that this actually functioned as a border crossing for a while.

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It was a war time checkpoint never a boarder crossing it was used for exchanging prisoners and civilians. The later pictures are from the reunification of Sarajevo.
Not quite - it was used to allow some people from both Sarajevo and the Republika Srpska to visit the other side during the war. It seems that it may actually have functioned as a border checkpoint (within RS constitutional theory) and not just as a war checkpoint. It certainly did function as one until Grbavica came under Federation control.

Regardless of what we think about the legitimacy of Republika Srpska, if they say it was a border crossing, then it must be one for the purposes of this thread
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Old August 7th, 2014, 02:44 PM   #10991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
I've found a bit more about it, and it seems that this actually functioned as a border crossing for a while.



Not quite - it was used to allow some people from both Sarajevo and the Republika Srpska to visit the other side during the war. It seems that it may actually have functioned as a border checkpoint (within RS constitutional theory) and not just as a war checkpoint. It certainly did function as one until Grbavica came under Federation control.

Regardless of what we think about the legitimacy of Republika Srpska, if they say it was a border crossing, then it must be one for the purposes of this thread
Regardless of point of view on legitimacy it was not an 'international border crossing' so for purpose of this thread its pointless.
Who exactly are "they"?
For someone that was not there please avoid giving these kind of comments. For your information Sarajevo was completely encircle and no one went on 'visits' to the other side seeing how there was a war on during the time of this checkpoint and people where being shelled and shot at.
If you have a agenda then I see where you coming from, but otherwise you throwing together irrelevant points that have no point on this thread.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 02:48 PM   #10992
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Why avoid the M6? Is the E73 the road to Metkovic? I wanna take this route from Mostar to Metkovic and then to Dubrovnik.

Last edited by Pascal20a; August 7th, 2014 at 03:15 PM.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 08:54 PM   #10993
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Originally Posted by Alien x View Post
Regardless of point of view on legitimacy it was not an 'international border crossing' so for purpose of this thread its pointless.
Who exactly are "they"?
Republika Srpska seemed to consider it an international border, judging by the signs and their various comments. It's not for us to judge as to whether it was legitimate, only that the government of RS considered it to be a border.

The picture makes it clear that the RS authorities considered it an international border crossing, just like they considered their borders with the RSK to be international borders.

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For someone that was not there please avoid giving these kind of comments.
But why deny the RS their own opinion? It would be like denying that South Ossetia or Northern Cyprus have border crossings.

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For your information Sarajevo was completely encircle and no one went on 'visits' to the other side seeing how there was a war on during the time of this checkpoint and people where being shelled and shot at.
Sorry, that's not quite true. There were various occasions throughout the war when permission was granted for people (usually elderly) to temporarily visit relatives in both directions.

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If you have a agenda then I see where you coming from, but otherwise you throwing together irrelevant points that have no point on this thread.
I only wish for the picture to be recognised for what it was - a border crossing into the Republika Srpska as recognised by the authorities in control of the RS. No agenda here - merely an acknowledgement that the RS considered it to be an international border.

Pascal, the queues at the M6 border crossing are a nightmare now. I'd go via Novo Selo on the Croatian A10 (Bosnian...A1? I'm not sure what number it has) instead.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 09:01 PM   #10994
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Sorry i meant the M17
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Old August 7th, 2014, 09:03 PM   #10995
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http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/24/wo...-the-city.html

This link contains some more information about the Grbavica border crossing within Sarajevo.

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Just before the bridge opened this morning, the Bosnian Serbs raised a Serbian flag and signs in three languages that read: "Srpska Republic, Border Crossing, New Sarajevo." The Bosnian Serbs call the part of Bosnia they control the Srpska Republic.

Nesib Muratovic, a Bosnian policeman at the Brotherhood and Unity bridge, said he was unhappy about the opening because it gave the Bosnian Serbs the opportunity to demonstrate their claim to sovereignty over the territory they have seized.

"They're going to put up a customs post," Officer Muratovic said. "It's the legalization of the Srpska Republic."

But United Nations officials insisted that the crossing is no border. "It's a passage where people can cross safely," General Soubirou said. "It's just a beginning."
A neutral view on the matter says that while the Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina didn't recognise it as a border crossing, the Republika Srpska did. In the RS constitutional theory, it was therefore an international border crossing. It had more or less the same recognition as the border crossings between Georgia and South Ossetia, or perhaps those between Moldova and Transdniester.

I wonder if the RS set up any other formal border crossings with the Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina? There's a description in Misha Glenny's book about the RSK-RS border, but no pictures sadly.

Last edited by Eulanthe; August 7th, 2014 at 11:14 PM.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 01:43 AM   #10996
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@Eulanthe
Thank you for the most irrelevant and useless information that you obviously posted for your own personal agenda.

No one else recognized it as an international border as it was wartime checkpoint. It has nothing to do with the examples that you mentioned as there is something called 'Dayton Peace Accords' maybe you should freshen up on that what is an international border in Bosnia and Herzegovina and what is not. Note the counties that signed the accords.
So kindly stop spamming this thread with you personal agenda.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 01:52 AM   #10997
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LOL WTF

Was checkpoint there, it seems yes

But, to call international border crossing, well, to really be international needs to be recogized country by others IMO (and this seems normal processus)
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Old August 8th, 2014, 02:35 AM   #10998
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Three pages about ex-Yugoslavia, center of the world!
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Old August 8th, 2014, 02:57 AM   #10999
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Three pages about ex-Yugoslavia, center of the world!
More like unemployment index

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Old August 8th, 2014, 02:59 AM   #11000
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@Eulanthe Thank you for the most irrelevant and useless information that you obviously posted for your own personal agenda.
What agenda?

The facts are absolutely crystal clear. The Republika Srpska government regarded the Novo Sarajevo checkpoint at the Brotherhood and Unity Bridge as being an international border checkpoint. The signs, as well as the infrastructure support that fact.

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no-one else recognized it as an international border as it was wartime checkpoint. It has nothing to do with the examples that you mentioned as there is something called 'Dayton Peace Accords' maybe you should freshen up on that what is an international border in Bosnia and Herzegovina and what is not. Note the counties that signed the accords.
I've read Dayton and other treaties until I was sick, and nothing can change the facts. It's a fact that the Republika Srpska regarded themselves as a sovereign and independent state, and in 1994, they started to move towards a 'normalisation' of the situation. The Republic of Bosnia and Hercegovina refused to accept it - which is why you can read above about the Bosnian governmental protests over the setting up of the checkpoint.

Who recognised and who didn't recognise the RS checkpoint - it's irrelevant. Regardless of what the de jure position was of the international community, it's pretty clear that in 1994, the RS was seriously trying to find a way to legitimise themselves. Setting up the border crossing was part of that, and really - they were de facto two different countries, not least under the usual definition of sovereignty (a functional government and territory). They were missing international recognition, but it didn't stop the Novo Sarajevo checkpoint being operated as an international checkpoint.

And as I've said repeatedly, it *did* function as a border crossing. Controls on people and baggage were conducted there, after all.

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So kindly stop spamming this thread with you personal agenda.
No personal agenda here, I'm not tainted by bitter partisan politics. For me, the facts on the ground are reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie
But, to call international border crossing, well, to really be international needs to be recogized country by others IMO (and this seems normal processus)
Well, the RS government regarded it as one. If you delve further into it, the RS declared independence in April 92, and was de facto independent until the implementation of the Dayton Agreement.
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