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Old August 19th, 2014, 01:55 AM   #11141
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I did not get it. What does prevent illegal immigrants from taking plane in Greece and travel all around the Schengenland legally with no worries or need to even pull out their passports from bags?

Dont be ridiculous, the security of Schengen area does not stand on either Bulgaria or Romania refusal in it.
I think in the case of Romania, there's a rather large elephant in the corner that no-one is talking about but is often implied. Romania is technically ready to join and has been for years now - but allowing them free access to Schengen means that the Roma also have free access - and many, many Europeans don't want it.

Those of us interested in border crossings know that the RO crossings with the EU are laid back and not much of a deterrent, but the CSU voter in Munich doesn't know that.

Bulgaria is pretty straightforward - they're failing to make progress in some areas and Schengen is being used to punish them. If they let Bulgaria in, they'll have no leverage to force through further reform.

With respect to Croatia, most of the hard work was done before accession, so it's not such a problem. The EU recognised quite wisely that it was better to make them reform before accession rather than after - hence why Croatia had to wait until 2013.

To swing the topic back round to border crossings, one thing that I found particularly weird was how little Greece cared about exit from Schengen to a non-EU country. For all the fuss about border security, no-one from the EU seems to care less that Greece is waving through most EU cars without fuss.
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Old August 19th, 2014, 02:05 AM   #11142
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RO-EU border can be lax or the strictest in the world, it has no effect on those Roma as they are the EU citizens and they can cross the border without anyone asking them any questions. Schengen area has absolutely 0 effect on the freedom of movement of EU citizens, just because there is passport control there it does not mean that they can't go and live in Germany. Those two are entirely unrelated.
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Old August 19th, 2014, 03:07 AM   #11143
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Many people still don't understand what Schengen is. The probably think non-Schengen citizens need to have visas.
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Old August 19th, 2014, 10:24 AM   #11144
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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post

To swing the topic back round to border crossings, one thing that I found particularly weird was how little Greece cared about exit from Schengen to a non-EU country. For all the fuss about border security, no-one from the EU seems to care less that Greece is waving through most EU cars without fuss.
What is this nonsense?
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Old August 19th, 2014, 12:56 PM   #11145
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Old August 19th, 2014, 03:47 PM   #11146
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Not true. Populist right-wing politicians in the UK, Netherlands and France have said vile things about Romanians.



Irrelevant. They are part of the EU and they can't be left out legally as they have equipped their border to fight illegal crossings and the EU doesn't deny this. Not to mention that Europe doesn't have much of a problem with illegal immigration like the US with Mexicans. Most migrants in Europe just seek asylum which is a different category, they can arrive through a regular border post as you can't turn them back once they have filed an asylum request. The only reason why they take the alternative routes is because they don't want to claim asylum in Bulgaria but in Germany or the UK and once they have been caught in Bulgaria they have to claim asylum there after which they can't do it in the west.

Bulgaria and Romania are member states with equal rights and responsibilities, you can't decide for them if they should give up on their rights because it is "not necessary" or doesn't provide you with significant benefit. It's their right and their prerogative.

Please... even the stones know that real asylum seekers are just a small fraction of those who claim asylum. Most go to western Europe in search of job.
Asylum seeker: one that goes abroad to flee a war or prosecution based on political ideals, ethnicity or religion and not for economical reasons. An Iraqi or Syrian asylum seeker may go to Turkey, Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, or any other country where he wouldn't be prosecuted. If one wants to go specifically to Germany or UK, he's no longer an asylum seeker, but one who migrates for economic reasons (job).
They only arrive through regular border posts? Since when Lampedusa is a legal point of entry for non-EU citizens?
The USA and Australia manage to deal with illegal immigration much better than Europe, that has good laws too but are often unenforced because of our obsession with political correctness.
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I think in the case of Romania, there's a rather large elephant in the corner that no-one is talking about but is often implied. Romania is technically ready to join and has been for years now - but allowing them free access to Schengen means that the Roma also have free access - and many, many Europeans don't want it.

Those of us interested in border crossings know that the RO crossings with the EU are laid back and not much of a deterrent, but the CSU voter in Munich doesn't know that.

Bulgaria is pretty straightforward - they're failing to make progress in some areas and Schengen is being used to punish them. If they let Bulgaria in, they'll have no leverage to force through further reform.

With respect to Croatia, most of the hard work was done before accession, so it's not such a problem. The EU recognised quite wisely that it was better to make them reform before accession rather than after - hence why Croatia had to wait until 2013.

To swing the topic back round to border crossings, one thing that I found particularly weird was how little Greece cared about exit from Schengen to a non-EU country. For all the fuss about border security, no-one from the EU seems to care less that Greece is waving through most EU cars without fuss.
That's bad. EU laws force EU member to control the EU\Schengen outer border. If they fail to do so, EU should impose sanctions. Without a proper control on the outer Schengen border, the Schengen system as whole would fail. The outer Schengen border is as strong as its weakest point! Same thing with Croatia, they will have to stop the free-flowing at Neum when they will join Schengen!
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old August 19th, 2014, 03:55 PM   #11147
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Please... even the stones know that real asylum seekers are just a small fraction of those who claim asylum. Most go to western Europe in search of job.
Asylum seeker: one that goes abroad to flee a war or prosecution based on political ideals, ethnicity or religion and not for economical reasons. An Iraqi or Syrian asylum seeker may go to Turkey, Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, or any other country where he wouldn't be prosecuted. If one wants to go specifically to Germany or UK, he's no longer an asylum seeker, but one who migrates for economic reasons (job).
They only arrive through regular border posts? Since when Lampedusa is a legal point of entry for non-EU citizens?
The USA and Australia manage to deal with illegal immigration much better than Europe, that has good laws too but are often unenforced because of our obsession with political correctness.
Wow you are so smart Putting aside your comments that show you didn't even read what I wrote such as "They only arrive through regular border posts?" where I wrote that they CAN arrive at a regular crossing too, you also write a lot of bs such as "If one wants to go specifically to Germany or UK, he's no longer an asylum seeker" which is not how things work, if it was there would be no problems that Europe is facing. The only way they can be stopped from seeking asylum in Germany is if they were registered elsewhere in the EU such as Bulgaria but if they weren't stopped before Berlin they will never tell you how they arrived to that point. And it's got absolutely nothing to do with political correctness but violations of international conventions signed by European countries. Just like you can't do death penalty in Europe, not because of political correctness but because of the international convention signed by all European countries except Belarus.

No one claimed they are actually persecuted, but they claim asylum and from that point they are asylum seekers not illegal immigrants. It doesn't matter if they claim is false or not. Is it clear now?
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Old August 19th, 2014, 04:20 PM   #11148
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Wow you are so smart Putting aside your comments that show you didn't even read what I wrote such as "They only arrive through regular border posts?" where I wrote that they CAN arrive at a regular crossing too, you also write a lot of bs such as "If one wants to go specifically to Germany or UK, he's no longer an asylum seeker" which is not how things work, if it was there would be no problems that Europe is facing. The only way they can be stopped from seeking asylum in Germany is if they were registered elsewhere in the EU such as Bulgaria but if they weren't stopped before Berlin they will never tell you how they arrived to that point. And it's got absolutely nothing to do with political correctness but violations of international conventions signed by European countries. Just like you can't do death penalty in Europe, not because of political correctness but because of the international convention signed by all European countries except Belarus.

No one claimed they are actually persecuted, but they claim asylum and from that point they are asylum seekers not illegal immigrants. It doesn't matter if they claim is false or not. Is it clear now?
So if I claim I'm a doctor, I've the right to practice the medical profession, doesn't matter if my claim is false or not, right? If during a trial I claim I'm innocent, I'm surely innocent, doesn't matter if my claim is false or not, right?

Being a citizen of a poor country it's not enough to qualify as asylum seeker. Of course it's our duty to give asylum to people who may risk to get killed or imprisoned in their own countries, but we must also be sure that they can qualify as asylum seekers. Otherwise we would need to give asylum to half world. Economic migrants (i.e. those in search of a job) are welcomed also, but with stricter conditions, such already have a job contract and a place to stay at their arrival.
Remember that many self-proclaimed asylum seekers make fake statements and even own fake documents to lie on their nationality. So a citizen of a poor but peaceful country may get a fake passport from a war-torn country and come to Europe asking political asylum. Using fake documents is a criminal offence anywhere in the world and punishing it isn't politically uncorrect.

Nobody says that giving political asylum and not using death penality is an excess of political correctness, it's just civility and democracy. But ignoring crimes committed by immigrants is an excess of political correctness that punishes honest people.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old August 19th, 2014, 05:47 PM   #11149
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So if I claim I'm a doctor, I've the right to practice the medical profession, doesn't matter if my claim is false or not, right? If during a trial I claim I'm innocent, I'm surely innocent, doesn't matter if my claim is false or not, right?
You don't seem to know anything about the subject, you only have presumptions, which might or might not be logically right, but it's got nothing to do with how things work in reality.

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Being a citizen of a poor country it's not enough to qualify as asylum seeker.
It's got nothing to with being from this or that country. To qualify as asylum seeker you have to seek asylum and that's it. Seeker = the one who seeks something, he doesn't have to get it, to seek means to endeavor to obtain or reach smth. To be recognised as a refugee ie. for that application to be accepted - that is different. But even a Canadian can seek asylum in Germany. Recently Germany had to take measures to expedite asylum processing as the state must as per some court decision provide asylum seekers, false or not, with accommodation, food, pocket money. While their utterly fake and unsubstantiated claim is processed they live in Germany on state benefits for several months. Roma and one certain other group from Serbia and Macedonia misused this so much that Germany threatened to introduce visa requirement for all citizens of Serbia and Macedonia. Luckily they adopted a new law instead that declares those two countries as safe which allows for claims for asylum to be processed more quickly. However they still have to be processed because someone might be genuinely persecuted even if the situation is good overall. However there is no way to adopt such a rule for African or Middle East countries which is misused by many who are not under any direct threat, who are just moving for economic reasons, faking the asylum claim. No one is denying their asylum claims are largely false, that's the whole point, however while their claims are being processed they are protected from deportation. And even when they are denied it's very difficult to deport them as they often claim to be from a different country than they are and thus that country won't accept them back. They also come back with a different claim in the next country. Situation is difficult. But it is essentially different to the US situation with Mexicans which was my first comment.
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Old August 19th, 2014, 07:36 PM   #11150
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You don't seem to know anything about the subject, you only have presumptions, which might or might not be logically right, but it's got nothing to do with how things work in reality.



It's got nothing to with being from this or that country. To qualify as asylum seeker you have to seek asylum and that's it. Seeker = the one who seeks something, he doesn't have to get it, to seek means to endeavor to obtain or reach smth. To be recognised as a refugee ie. for that application to be accepted - that is different. But even a Canadian can seek asylum in Germany. Recently Germany had to take measures to expedite asylum processing as the state must as per some court decision provide asylum seekers, false or not, with accommodation, food, pocket money. While their utterly fake and unsubstantiated claim is processed they live in Germany on state benefits for several months. Roma and one certain other group from Serbia and Macedonia misused this so much that Germany threatened to introduce visa requirement for all citizens of Serbia and Macedonia. Luckily they adopted a new law instead that declares those two countries as safe which allows for claims for asylum to be processed more quickly. However they still have to be processed because someone might be genuinely persecuted even if the situation is good overall. However there is no way to adopt such a rule for African or Middle East countries which is misused by many who are not under any direct threat, who are just moving for economic reasons, faking the asylum claim. No one is denying their asylum claims are largely false, that's the whole point, however while their claims are being processed they are protected from deportation. And even when they are denied it's very difficult to deport them as they often claim to be from a different country than they are and thus that country won't accept them back. They also come back with a different claim in the next country. Situation is difficult. But it is essentially different to the US situation with Mexicans which was my first comment.
This is what I hate the most. People that aren't endangered in their home country come here claiming to be asylum seekers and then living off social benefits without working, while many Italians are struggling due to the crisis and the state doesn't give money to them! If an Italian lose his job, he will become homeless and nobody will help him, if a foreigner claim fake asylum, he will live without working, payed with our taxes.
But seriously, how can one from a democratic country claim to be an asylum seeker? If one is prosecuted in a democratic country, it means that he committed a crime and should be in prison. We gladly accept to protect war refuges and political prisoneers, but we don't need to import criminals, they aren't a scarce thing here.
BTW, Germany alone can't impose visa requirement on certain nationalities, only the Schengen area as whole can. Serbs and Macedonians were given visa-free access to the Schengen area few years ago.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old August 19th, 2014, 07:52 PM   #11151
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BTW, Germany alone can't impose visa requirement on certain nationalities, only the Schengen area as whole can.
They have pushed for some changes earlier this year which means any member state can demand a temporary suspension of visa-free access. Yes it would mean visa requirement for the whole Schengen Area, not just the country that requested it. I am not sure what is the exact mechanism but it is certainly simpler from introducing visas to citizens of countries that are in breach of the reciprocity principle (countries like the US, Canada, Australia) where it might take several years before the EU imposes visas on their citizens if they persist with such restrictions. This temporary suspension mechanism can be introduced if there is a rise in number of false asylum seekers among other things. Germany unlike some other countries like Switzerland or Sweden was keen not to change their freebies to asylum seekers system but kept complaining about the problem so Serbia offered to cover those costs but in the end Germany finally accepted to tweak their laws, so those people won't spend months in Germany anymore but their cases will be dealt with in a matter of days.
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Old August 19th, 2014, 09:18 PM   #11152
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Okay, let's sum it up.
1) Talking about political issues inseparable from politics is ok to me and it follows the topic of this thread
2) Talking about the material the international border crossings are made of is ok to me and it follows the topic of this thread
3) Talking about what should be the object of this thread in more than 5 posts is not ok to me and it definitely does not follow the topic of this thread.
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Old August 19th, 2014, 09:20 PM   #11153
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It doesn't matter anymore anyway, it all got deleted again.
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Old August 19th, 2014, 10:29 PM   #11154
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That's bad. EU laws force EU member to control the EU\Schengen outer border. If they fail to do so, EU should impose sanctions. Without a proper control on the outer Schengen border, the Schengen system as whole would fail. The outer Schengen border is as strong as its weakest point! Same thing with Croatia, they will have to stop the free-flowing at Neum when they will join Schengen!
It is a huge problem with Schengen in general. For instance -

Polish external borders with Russia, Belarus and Ukraine - strong controls are absolutely normal, checking of all documents are routine and Customs take an interest (although not always action) in every crossing. The border is secure, and is backed up with a heavy presence along the green line.

This should be normal for all external Schengen borders, but the reality is that - as you say - it's as strong as it's weakest point. I believe that Romania and Bulgaria both apply thorough and strict checks, however.

Slovenia was another country incredibly guilty of this before Croatian accession to the EU. They would wave you through on major border crossings without even so much as a glance at the passport, and I've only had my car documents checked once by them. The car was only ever searched once, and that was after Croatia joined the EU.

What's frightening is how Croatia doesn't seem to really be controlling the EU frontier too well. I understand that the entire street in Metkovic was deemed to be a border crossing for locals, but that doesn't excuse not having physical patrols conducting random controls. From my point of view - if I can take my PL-registered car and spend half an hour hanging around the border without a single question from the police, then something is severely wrong with their monitoring of the border.

What's also a problem is that on the smaller border crossings, they aren't bothering to scan passports, but rather just relying on visual checks. That's really not acceptable for external EU borders.

Neum is the worst example, because it shows how Croatia (despite the nice new border crossings designed to impress the EU) are behaving as if BiH doesn't matter. With BiH failing to control their border, Croatia really should be conducting proper checks - yet the Croatian Carina are invisible there, and exit controls are a joke.

Speaking of Croatia, I can't see how Croatia can be allowed into Schengen as long as her external borders aren't demarcated properly. There's nothing in Metkovic to warn you (apart from one sign on BiH territory) that you're in danger of crossing the border - that is simply utterly and completely unacceptable for a modern day EU external border.
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Old August 19th, 2014, 10:45 PM   #11155
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Perhaps a not popular opinion here, but there is nothing more artificial in World than border crossings. Even concrete houses are (basically) part of the evolution and therefore more natural than stupid lines which can be crossed only under certain circumstances.

Why can a eagle fly from northern hemisphere to southern one without worrying where he is and human can't?
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Old August 19th, 2014, 11:04 PM   #11156
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There's nothing in Metkovic to warn you (apart from one sign on BiH territory) that you're in danger of crossing the border
Gosh. Those Balkan countries are really dangerous.
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Old August 19th, 2014, 11:18 PM   #11157
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Perhaps a not popular opinion here, but there is nothing more artificial in World than border crossings. Even concrete houses are (basically) part of the evolution and therefore more natural than stupid lines which can be crossed only under certain circumstances.

Why can a eagle fly from northern hemisphere to southern one without worrying where he is and human can't?

thank you, voice of sanity finally.

And Eulanthe if he is Polish I would put him in Warsaw ghetto, because apparently that what he finds appropriate.
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Old August 19th, 2014, 11:25 PM   #11158
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Perhaps a not popular opinion here, but there is nothing more artificial in World than border crossings. Even concrete houses are (basically) part of the evolution and therefore more natural than stupid lines which can be crossed only under certain circumstances.

Why can a eagle fly from northern hemisphere to southern one without worrying where he is and human can't?
It's a good question

But I think humans need to organise and have rules. It's all around us, even looking at children - they will invent and create their own rules, even if they aren't aware of exactly what they're doing.

If you think of border crossings as simply being a means to go from one territory to another without getting into trouble, then maybe they're not quite so unnatural as it seems. But I always found it strange to be driving down an ordinary road in a town, suddenly to be confronted by police and a barrier with no means of continuing without certain paperwork.

It's even more surreal when you say "hey, I only want to go to the shop (10m away) to buy some bread" and they won't let you - even though they speak the same language on both sides and everything looks more or less the same.

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Those Balkan countries are really dangerous.
The 2000kn fine for straying across the border from the Croats and potential prison sentence is dangerous for my wallet and freedom
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Old August 20th, 2014, 12:06 AM   #11159
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It's a good question

But I think humans need to organise and have rules. It's all around us, even looking at children - they will invent and create their own rules, even if they aren't aware of exactly what they're doing.

If you think of border crossings as simply being a means to go from one territory to another without getting into trouble, then maybe they're not quite so unnatural as it seems. But I always found it strange to be driving down an ordinary road in a town, suddenly to be confronted by police and a barrier with no means of continuing without certain paperwork.

It's even more surreal when you say "hey, I only want to go to the shop (10m away) to buy some bread" and they won't let you - even though they speak the same language on both sides and everything looks more or less the same.



The 2000kn fine for straying across the border from the Croats and potential prison sentence is dangerous for my wallet and freedom
Yeah, but I always get aware of that when I see the Kamzik Tower above Bratislava from Rajka in Hungary or Potzneusidl in Austria. I always realize that this region is my homeland, there are my friends somewhere among the buildings far away making up the panorama of my city even I am in different country with different problems, laws, politicians, language, etc.

At the same time I am completely lost somewhere near the PL-SK-UA triplex, feeling like an alien despite my language.

Taking that into account, I am fully aware about the artificiality of borders.
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Old August 20th, 2014, 12:47 AM   #11160
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Yeah, but I always get aware of that when I see the Kamzik Tower above Bratislava from Rajka in Hungary or Potzneusidl in Austria. I always realize that this region is my homeland, there are my friends somewhere among the buildings far away making up the panorama of my city even I am in different country with different problems, laws, politicians, language, etc.
Well if you are coming from Hungary, the stuff you mentioned is not that different

Anyway the day before yesterday I crossed the border from the other side at Sahy (or Ipolyság or Eipelschlag)/Hont. I have seen no significant landmarks, only a shop that sells tires and alcoholic beverages. An interesting combination I must say.
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Emperor of Bir Tawil and the Nbcee farmlands
Demigod of DLM
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