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Old November 28th, 2014, 04:02 PM   #11781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
I'm looking at the map of that area. Somebody was obviously very drunk when that frontier was designed...
But it could be the case when shapefile of borders does not match the shapefile of rivers. If yo look closer, you will see, the rivers are really detailed (arc is de facto set of many vertices) comparing to the borders that are more generalised (3-4 vertices per arc). You will barely see the discrepancies if zoomed out.

Btw. the other question is, why they've marked the border along oxbow lakes instead of the major stream.
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Old November 28th, 2014, 04:07 PM   #11782
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
It looks like a factory backyard, where probably only workers can enter. Maybe they have some autorization to cross the border there. Could that Slovenian company have been built deliberately on Croatian soil for some fiscal advantage?
There's a similar case near Hum na Sutli (HR)/Rogatec (SLO) - the factory is physically located in Croatia, but their storage area is in Slovenia. Until not so long ago, their trucks had to cross the border twice just to get to their factory - but now they built a special bridge that allows the company to access their storage area without having to deal with border controls. It sounds absurd, but makes perfect sense when you consider that Yugoslav internal republic borders were a non-issue. There's quite a few absurdities like this along the SLO/HR border, including one near Bregana where access to the Slovenian hotel is only through Croatia.
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Old November 28th, 2014, 04:22 PM   #11783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
The problem with the Yugoslav republic borders were that they really were poorly made in some cases. They weren't of any particular importance, so I don't think anyone bothered to sit down and say "well, this line is an absurdity" because it didn't really matter at all. Of course, the sensible thing now would be to conduct some land swaps and get it straightened out, but relations in this area between Slovenia and Croatia seem to be pretty cool. I guess with Croatia's entry to the EU, it ceases to be of any real significance.
Was the Slovenia-Croatia border inherited from the Austro-Hungarian Empire? I mean, was it the line between different pieces of the empire?
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Old November 28th, 2014, 04:42 PM   #11784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Was the Slovenia-Croatia border inherited from the Austro-Hungarian Empire? I mean, was it the line between different pieces of the empire?
Yes, Slovenia was in Austrian part while Croatia was in Hungarian part.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...arn_1898.1.JPG
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Old November 28th, 2014, 04:50 PM   #11785
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Originally Posted by Aokromes View Post
Netherlands inside Belgium inside Netherlands?
Yeah Aokromes. Just type Baarle on google maps and be sure borders are not a mistake!!!
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Old November 28th, 2014, 05:03 PM   #11786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
But it could be the case when shapefile of borders does not match the shapefile of rivers. If yo look closer, you will see, the rivers are really detailed (arc is de facto set of many vertices) comparing to the borders that are more generalised (3-4 vertices per arc). You will barely see the discrepancies if zoomed out.

Btw. the other question is, why they've marked the border along oxbow lakes instead of the major stream.
I really wish I'd be in a position to draft an intelligent response in reply to your post, but unfortunately I am unable to as I haven't got the faintest idea what you are saying.
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Old November 28th, 2014, 05:10 PM   #11787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
There's a similar case near Hum na Sutli (HR)/Rogatec (SLO) - the factory is physically located in Croatia, but their storage area is in Slovenia. Until not so long ago, their trucks had to cross the border twice just to get to their factory - but now they built a special bridge that allows the company to access their storage area without having to deal with border controls. It sounds absurd, but makes perfect sense when you consider that Yugoslav internal republic borders were a non-issue.
It's not the same, that storage area in Rogatec was built after independence because of lack of space on the Croatian side. I think that Balažic guy in Hotiza just ignores the border.
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Old November 28th, 2014, 05:52 PM   #11788
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Was the Slovenia-Croatia border inherited from the Austro-Hungarian Empire? I mean, was it the line between different pieces of the empire?
Yes. However, that border is much older than Austria-Hungary.
The Holy Roman Empire, one millennium ago:

The border between the Empire and Croatia is (except for Istria) the same as the current SLO-HR border, however it was not so detailed defined as it is now.

The same empire just before the French revolution:

The imperial border is (again except for Istria and for Muraside) the same as the current SLO-HR border.

Note, however, that this part of Slovenia (east of the river Mura) was never the part of Germany or Austria, but belonged to Hungary until world war I. By the peace treaty of Trianon (1920) this part of Hungary was given to the recently funded Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (from 1929 called as Yugoslavia), and was divided between Slovenia and Croatia (both were parts of that kingdom that time). The SLO-HR border followed the former boundary line between the small (third level) regions of Lendva and Csáktornya (Lendava and Čakovec, respectively) inside the region Zala of Hungary. The small Slovenian village of Hotiza used to be Hungarian and had the name Murarév (literally: ferry on Mura river), just like the currently Croatian Sveti Martin na Muri (Hung. Muraszentmárton, Engl. St. Martin upon Mura).
HERE you find a huge map (however very bad quality) of the former Hungarian region "Zala", where you can find this region bottom left.
So that short piece of the SLO-HR border where that police car was photographed was an inner-Hungarian regional border before 1920, and was never a border between independent states before the independence of Slovenia and Croatia (1991).

So, I think my answer is much more detailed than you expected ;-))
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Old November 28th, 2014, 06:06 PM   #11789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
I really wish I'd be in a position to draft an intelligent response in reply to your post, but unfortunately I am unable to as I haven't got the faintest idea what you are saying.
Sorry, I admit I see how my post was impolite now:

If you try to cover Earth surface's phenomena and transform it into map, you need to do it in vector graphic.

The vector graphic consists of points, lines (two or more points) and fills (closed lines). Someone must create it according to real conditions.

So in case of borders in Google Maps, someone had to take a real satellite or aerial images and create the points, lines and aerials. Just manually click it along. It is call digitalisation.

Imagine the outline of certain country (e.g. Austria). The more points (vertices) it contain, the more realistic shape it gets (it is similar like screen resolution). But of course, more points require more time and effort to create but also to load.

The vector graphic containing one type of phenomena is called layer (e.g. layer containing only borders, only rivers etc.) and the final map is just a set of layers. The files of layers are often called shapefiles. At some page, you are able to turn on/of particular layers.

The appearance of HR/SLO border on GM looks like work results of two different people. One did it right, strictly with great effort (the one who digitalised rivers) while the other did it barely with small effort (the one who digitalised borders).

Therefore the layers do not match.

But generalised lines are not always bad. If you load GM at zoom where you can see whole Europe, the lines are probably generalized, but you can't recognize it. It is enough. It would take so long to load it detailed. But if you zoom in to Austria, notice how it load new version of layers which are more detailed. But it does not take long since it does not have to load whole Europe at that zoom, but the current frame.

The border between HR/SLO matches perfectly with rivers if you zoom it out to Balkan extend.

Sorry for long post & OT.
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Old November 28th, 2014, 07:30 PM   #11790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Note, however, that this part of Slovenia (east of the river Mura) was never the part of Germany
Yes, except in 1944-1945.
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Old November 29th, 2014, 03:10 PM   #11791
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good old days
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Old November 29th, 2014, 03:43 PM   #11792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
There's a similar case near Hum na Sutli (HR)/Rogatec (SLO) - the factory is physically located in Croatia, but their storage area is in Slovenia. Until not so long ago, their trucks had to cross the border twice just to get to their factory - but now they built a special bridge that allows the company to access their storage area without having to deal with border controls. It sounds absurd, but makes perfect sense when you consider that Yugoslav internal republic borders were a non-issue. There's quite a few absurdities like this along the SLO/HR border, including one near Bregana where access to the Slovenian hotel is only through Croatia.
Are you referring to the famous Kalin restaurant in Bregana?





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Old November 29th, 2014, 03:45 PM   #11793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
Sorry, I admit I see how my post was impolite now:

If you try to cover Earth surface's phenomena and transform it into map, you need to do it in vector graphic.

The vector graphic consists of points, lines (two or more points) and fills (closed lines). Someone must create it according to real conditions.

So in case of borders in Google Maps, someone had to take a real satellite or aerial images and create the points, lines and aerials. Just manually click it along. It is call digitalisation.

Imagine the outline of certain country (e.g. Austria). The more points (vertices) it contain, the more realistic shape it gets (it is similar like screen resolution). But of course, more points require more time and effort to create but also to load.

The vector graphic containing one type of phenomena is called layer (e.g. layer containing only borders, only rivers etc.) and the final map is just a set of layers. The files of layers are often called shapefiles. At some page, you are able to turn on/of particular layers.

The appearance of HR/SLO border on GM looks like work results of two different people. One did it right, strictly with great effort (the one who digitalised rivers) while the other did it barely with small effort (the one who digitalised borders).

Therefore the layers do not match.

But generalised lines are not always bad. If you load GM at zoom where you can see whole Europe, the lines are probably generalized, but you can't recognize it. It is enough. It would take so long to load it detailed. But if you zoom in to Austria, notice how it load new version of layers which are more detailed. But it does not take long since it does not have to load whole Europe at that zoom, but the current frame.

The border between HR/SLO matches perfectly with rivers if you zoom it out to Balkan extend.

Sorry for long post & OT.
Concerning borders, OSM is muuuuch more accurate than GM. I think that borders' accuracy is one of the weakest aspects of GM.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old November 29th, 2014, 04:05 PM   #11794
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Originally Posted by italysf
Are you referring to the famous Kalin restaurant in Bregana?
No, rather this place - https://www.google.pl/maps/@45.82511...FOKisj6vEg!2e0 . It appears to be closed now, but from looking around there, the only access was from Croatia. Incidentally, the permanently-stationed guards have gone from Bregana - there were two guard huts, one near Kalin (that you can see in the 2nd picture) and another one closer to the motorway border crossing, but they've been abandoned. Which is nice, especially after being told to get lost by the Kalin one before...
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Old November 29th, 2014, 08:57 PM   #11795
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[IMG]http://i61.************/1zdyelf.jpg[/IMG] Another picture summing up the absurdity of the SLO-HR border and the lack of tourist border crossings. This is somewhere nearish Rogatec/Hum na Sutli, and there is no official border crossing near here. Yet there's a water park just across the border, and a bridge that isn't barricaded in any way. There's even a small car park on the Croatian side - but it's forbidden to cross there.
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Old November 29th, 2014, 09:03 PM   #11796
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Quite cool those pictures about the binational restaurant

Do you have further information about it?

I read once about a hotel partially in Switzerland, partially in France
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Old November 29th, 2014, 10:14 PM   #11797
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Concerning borders, OSM is muuuuch more accurate than GM. I think that borders' accuracy is one of the weakest aspects of GM.
of course. And OSM shapefiles are downloadable and always up to date :-) The only problem is they are very detailed Once I've tried to load a building layer for whole Europe no way to load. They are good only for very very large scales (level of municipalities).

But I like visitors can contribute.
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Old November 29th, 2014, 10:15 PM   #11798
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Are you referring to the famous Kalin restaurant in Bregana?




How had it worked during turbulent post-Yugo era?
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Old November 29th, 2014, 10:37 PM   #11799
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How had it worked during turbulent post-Yugo era?
I know that there were some issues caused by Croatian border guards being over-zealous - for instance, shouting at people who went a few metres into Croatia (on the road outside). But there were no real issues there as far as I know - the building is registered in Slovenia, and Croatia treats the border as effectively running on the outside of the building. From my research, it seems that the SLO-HR border in general was ignored by locals until 2004, when Slovenia started to control the border a bit more strictly. The flower pots outside the restaurant date from that time, as far as I know.
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Old November 30th, 2014, 12:46 AM   #11800
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Another picture summing up the absurdity of the SLO-HR border and the lack of tourist border crossings. This is somewhere nearish Rogatec/Hum na Sutli, and there is no official border crossing near here. Yet there's a water park just across the border, and a bridge that isn't barricaded in any way. There's even a small car park on the Croatian side - but it's forbidden to cross there.
It might be permitted to some locals.
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