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Old January 13th, 2015, 12:03 AM   #12161
g.spinoza
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Yes, he can, for three months tops.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 12:19 AM   #12162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Okay, here's a question: I know basically that the Schengen agreement closed permanent border controls among its members, and that citizens of those member states can move fairly freely (use their own national ID cards if they're asked for ID elsewhere, that sort of thing...)

I'm curious about people who aren't citizens of member states. Say, an American crossing the French-Belgian border. As a practical matter, the border controls aren't there, but does an American entering a Schengen member state officially, on paper, have the right to enter all of them once he's inside that first one?

Hope I'm making sense....
Yes, you aren't entering a particular country but instead you are entering the whole Schengen area. You can move freely inside the Schengen area as long as you are allowed to stay (depending on your permit). Therefore, all entry requirements of the Schengen members are identical for foreign people.

In fact you can compare it with the U.S.: You aren't entering just Florida when landing at Miami International Airport but instead the whole United States.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 12:20 AM   #12163
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Don't know for Americans, I guess they don't require visa for EU.

But I have Indian, Chinese, Mexican, Colombian colleagues at work. They can legally only enter those Schengen states entered in the visa. But my colleagues all have visa for the whole Schengen space.

An interesting fact is, for example, they can also travel to Romania, with a Schengen visa for at least 2 or 3 of the members, without having Romanian visa:
Quote:
According to Emergency Government Ordinance no. 109/2013, as of February 1st 2014, the bearers of uniform visas (with 2 or multiple entries), long-term visas, as well as residence permits issued by Schengen Member States shall no longer be required to hold a short-stay visa to enter the territory of Romania for a time period that may not exceed 90 days in any 180 day period.
In order for the bearers of the aforementioned documents to benefit from the facility of entering Romania without holding a Romanian visa, the number of entries as well as the right of stay established as per the Schengen visas, must not have been exhausted.
Also, the right of stay in the territory of Romania shall not exceed the right of stay granted as per the visas/residence permits issued by Schengen Member States.
source
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Old January 13th, 2015, 12:23 AM   #12164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Okay, here's a question: I know basically that the Schengen agreement closed permanent border controls among its members, and that citizens of those member states can move fairly freely (use their own national ID cards if they're asked for ID elsewhere, that sort of thing...)

I'm curious about people who aren't citizens of member states. Say, an American crossing the French-Belgian border. As a practical matter, the border controls aren't there, but does an American entering a Schengen member state officially, on paper, have the right to enter all of them once he's inside that first one?

Hope I'm making sense....
As g.spinoza says, yes. The only difference (I don't know if it currently exists though) is when f.e. Slovenian citizens (when we weren't yet in the EU and Schengen) needed only an ID to enter Austria, but we needed a passport to enter Germany (even though they were both in Schengen with no control on the border).
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Old January 13th, 2015, 12:24 AM   #12165
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Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
Yes, you aren't entering a particular country but instead you are entering the whole Schengen area. Therefore, all entry requirements of the Schengen members are identical for foreign people.

In fact you can compare it with the U.S.: You aren't entering just Florida when landing at Miami International Airport but instead the whole United States.
It's exactly like this. Of course not only for Americans, but to all other nationalities. A, for example, Russian or Chinese who wants to visit, for example, Italy or France, needs to apply for a Schengen visa, that allows him to travel freely around the Schengen area until his visa is expired. If he wants to visit also a non-Schengen country (for example the UK, Serbia or even Andorra) during his stay in Europe, he'll need to apply for a multiple-entry Schengen visa.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 12:28 AM   #12166
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As g.spinoza says, yes. The only difference (I don't know if it currently exists though) is when f.e. Slovenian citizens (when we weren't yet in the EU and Schengen) needed only an ID to enter Austria, but we needed a passport to enter Germany (even though they were both in Schengen with no control on the border).
I've read back in this thread that until July 2013 Croats needed passport to visit UE, except Italy, Slovenia and Hungary.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 12:38 AM   #12167
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Yes, but even then they got some paper when they crossed the border with an ID.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 12:39 AM   #12168
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Nationals from countries who need a visa to enter any given Schengen country are usually given a "Schengen visa", meaning that it is valid for all the Schengen area, not just for a particular Schengen country.

Let's say, somebody from Colombia wants to visit Spain and he applies for a visa in the Spanish Consulate in Bogotá; he will be given a "Schengen visa" and therefore no restrictions will apply to him when going to other Schengen area countries.

Before Schengen Agreement was concluded most Latin Americans citizens could travel to Spain without a visa; after Schengen went into force Spain had to adapt its policy to the Schengen requirements and all these citizens started to need a visa to visit Spain, which upset public opinion in some Latin American countries; I remember a group of intellectuals felt so insulted by that change of policy that they promised to never visit Spain again.

In any event Spain took advantage of the situation to control the increasing flow of immigrants from Latin America who arrived in Spain by plane, although it's not so difficult to obtain a tourist visa for the Schengen area and most of them continued coming pretending they were tourists; they simply didn't use the required return ticket.

However since the financial crisis started the flow has somehow reversed, and now some Latin American countries establish restrictions for Spanish citizens (in revenge?). The case of Brazil is widely known, where hundreds of Spaniards were refused entry a couple of years ago alleging their lack of financial support or hotel reservations for the period of stay in the country. But I haven't heard anything else recently.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 01:01 AM   #12169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Okay, here's a question: I know basically that the Schengen agreement closed permanent border controls among its members, and that citizens of those member states can move fairly freely (use their own national ID cards if they're asked for ID elsewhere, that sort of thing...)
You're largely right, but you conflate things. The Schengen agreement only abolished the physical borders between the Schengen Area member states, but it doesn't have any effect per se on their citizens, as in it doesn't give them any additional rights. The rights you associate with the Schengen agreement, like using the national ID cards if they're asked for ID elsewhere or to cross the still existing internal EU borders, are actually granted by the EU to all EU citizens equally. For example, a French national doesn't have any extra rights to travel within the Schengen Area compared to a British national, and both could use their national ID cards to cross the French-British border. If the British had national ID cards, that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
I'm curious about people who aren't citizens of member states. Say, an American crossing the French-Belgian border. As a practical matter, the border controls aren't there, but does an American entering a Schengen member state officially, on paper, have the right to enter all of them once he's inside that first one?

Hope I'm making sense....
All EU member states, excepting the UK and Ireland, plus Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland operate a single visa system, so if you have a visa issued by a Schengen Area member state you can travel in all previously mentioned countries. If you want to travel to the UK or Ireland though, you must obtain a separate visa from either one of them since the two countries operate their own common travel area.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 01:08 AM   #12170
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It is also possible to have an Irish visa and not be allowed to cross into Northern Ireland, but that's unenforceable.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 01:40 AM   #12171
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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Yes, but even then they got some paper when they crossed the border with an ID.
If i am Croatian and i want to go to Slovenia,do i need pasport or just ID to enter Slovenia?
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Old January 13th, 2015, 01:54 AM   #12172
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Originally Posted by Autoputevi kao hobi View Post
If i am Croatian and i want to go to Slovenia,do i need pasport or just ID to enter Slovenia?
"Citizens of EU countries do not need a visa to enter Slovenia. They just need a valid travel document."
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Old January 13th, 2015, 02:38 AM   #12173
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Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
Yes, you aren't entering a particular country but instead you are entering the whole Schengen area. You can move freely inside the Schengen area as long as you are allowed to stay (depending on your permit). Therefore, all entry requirements of the Schengen members are identical for foreign people.

In fact you can compare it with the U.S.: You aren't entering just Florida when landing at Miami International Airport but instead the whole United States.
Thank you all. It seems to me that the bit I've underlined is key. This has been on my mind for a couple of days - can't remember why at this point; I kept forgetting to ask.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 03:25 AM   #12174
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Andorra can be a trap for foreign visitors holding a single-entry Schengen visa. Andorra is visa free for every citizenship, they rely on filtering by France and Spain, as all visitors enter from there with no airport present.
So it's easy to get in, but doing so, one exits Schengen space, and the return from there is a second entry to the Schengen space!
Due to customs presence, one might also have his personal documents checked, and then, with a single-entry visa, there is a problem.

I guess it is not unresolvable (at the worst, one could apply for another Schengen entry visa at the French or Spanish embassy - only ones in Andorra), but better avoid this hassle beforehand.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 03:53 AM   #12175
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I still can't get my head around Andorra having customs controls (or the neighboring countries having controls for people leaving it). Do they think people would be smuggling goods that were dropped into Andorra from a plane?
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Old January 13th, 2015, 04:27 AM   #12176
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3 a.m. here, only the American is awake xD

No, not dropped by a plane. But the country does have advantageous taxation. Even VAT ("sales tax") was only introduced in 2004 or so. I guess they get all their merchandise by road transport - the difference in customer price is the difference in what the state takes for itself (not only VAT-wise, also gasoline tax, etc.). So, many goods, including expensive luxury goods, are significantly cheaper, and this is why F and E customs are watching out.

Generally said, when entering Andorra, they rather check persons (country has a low crime rate, which it would like to preserve), and when exiting, it's more about goods, as the EU states don't want tax/duty losses.

You didn't like Continental Europe's uniformity fetishists, here's the country withstanding them!

(and no, it's not only about advantages, I've read articles about foreign residents complaining about an "unreliable" legal system, with laws and regulations changing rapidly and unpredictably ...)
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Old January 13th, 2015, 06:05 AM   #12177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I've read back in this thread that until July 2013 Croats needed passport to visit UE, except Italy, Slovenia and Hungary.
i think that for some reason one Baltic country was involved too (Lithuania I think). It was the same thing as Verso said for Slovenians entering Austria on the previous page.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 10:33 AM   #12178
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In the US I've experienced annoying situations resulting from the lack of a proper identification. I was there as an exchange student when I was 21, and although I could legally buy alcohol and therefore I could enter bars and restaurants without restrictions, I had to carry my Spanish passport at all times. Every time I tried to show proof of my age with my Spanish ID Card or My Spanish Driving License, I was refused access to the premises where alcohol was served (even though I could have just ordered a coke!). I found that paranoid, especially taking into account that a passport doesn't fit into a wallet, and being a man I wasn't carrying a purse or a handbag where it could fit. As a result I had to carry it at all times in my pocket, just in case I wanted to buy a beer or simply have dinner in a restaurant that also had license as a bar. After a semester, the letters on the cover of the passport displaying "Spain" had faded, so now my passport must be opened to check its nationality.

But the most annoying situation happened to an Italian friend of mine. We went to a local coffee shop one day, and some of us ordered a beer pitcher (I assume it was a coffee shop with alcohol license). The waitress asked us for our IDs in order not only to give us the pitcher, but also the exact number of glasses. The majority of us were obediently carrying our European passports, but she did only carry her Italian ID card. She was 23 at that time, but the waitress refused to give her a glass, warning us that we would be all expelled from the premises if she caught my Italian friend drinking from somebody's glass! Seriously, this is ridiculous.

In addition, some European friends of mine had also trouble with another ID related issue. In most European countries the date of birth is shown dd/mm/yyyy, while in the US it is shown mm/dd/yyyy. Therefore, a Spanish friend of mine who had been born on January 8 was mistakenly identified as being born on August 1. And, precisely, I went with her to the US in April of the year she had turned 21. Try to tell a supermarket cashier when buying a beer that in Europe we write the dates in a different way...

Besides that, I had a great experience in the US.
Consider also that U.S. Transportation Security Adminsitration officers at the Orlando International Airport thought that a driver license from the District of Columbia (where the nation's capital, Washington, is located) was a foreign license. Most Americans know very little geography and, those who work where alcohol is seved will not risk their jobs or the owner's liquor license wen they are not sure of the ID. In the United States there is a lot of hypocrisy with respect to alcohol and minors and the laws reflect that hypocrisy, even to the point of a ridiculous Florida law that requires students of hospitality.restaurant/bar management who are under 21 to spit out any alcoholic beverages they have to taste as part of their classes. It also has to do with federal money being withheld from states that do not have, or enforce, a drinking age of 21.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 05:25 PM   #12179
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Originally Posted by Autoputevi kao hobi View Post
If i am Croatian and i want to go to Slovenia,do i need pasport or just ID to enter Slovenia?
ID is enough, because we're both in EU (but even before it was enough for a long time, maybe even right from independence, I'm not sure).
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Old January 13th, 2015, 06:28 PM   #12180
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Consider also that U.S. Transportation Security Adminsitration officers at the Orlando International Airport thought that a driver license from the District of Columbia (where the nation's capital, Washington, is located) was a foreign license. Most Americans know very little geography and, those who work where alcohol is seved will not risk their jobs or the owner's liquor license wen they are not sure of the ID. In the United States there is a lot of hypocrisy with respect to alcohol and minors and the laws reflect that hypocrisy, even to the point of a ridiculous Florida law that requires students of hospitality.restaurant/bar management who are under 21 to spit out any alcoholic beverages they have to taste as part of their classes. It also has to do with federal money being withheld from states that do not have, or enforce, a drinking age of 21.
Sometimes American laws and traditions really amaze me.
It's usually the pioneer country in new technologies (most things nowadays are invented there), but it still teachs creationism in some schools. In Italy, that is aroud 90% Catholic, nobody would ever think to teach creationism at school. In some US states, consensual homosexuality and ****\oral sex in heterosexual couples were illegal until as late as 2003 (and now, many protests against Putin...)
They have ridiculously strict alchool laws that forbide anyone under 21, not only to drink, but also to enter some places where alchool is served. It's also illegal to drink in the street, even without creating any nuisance. They have "anti-loitering" laws, that allow to arrest someone just for standing suispiciously in a place. But nobody can be prohibitted to buy freely as many firearms as he likes and carry around wherever he wants. Maybe they feel more socially dangerous someone with a can of beer rather than a machine gun.
But maybe Americans are amazed by some European things that we find normal.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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