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Old January 17th, 2015, 07:07 PM   #12301
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
So if intra-Schengen border controls existed, they might have been stopped. (Or the Jewish Museum shooter from Brussels might not have made it to Marseille.)
A determined person could easily cross walking over some farm tracks, just take a look in Google Maps how porous the French-Belgian border is.

The French-Spanish border is a bit more easy to protect due to the Pyrenees, but even so, it could be evaded by a small group of determined fit young people, unless you are talking of militarizing the border and building fences. Then multiply this policy for all 27 member-states and the stupidity becomes ever more apparent. All an end of Schengen would do is waste a lot of resource on useless government bureaucracy, and hundreds of millions of passenger-minute delays at crossing points. Which was exactly why Schengen was implemented first place.

Even at airports such controls are not easy, because it would require renovations on many terminal and, again, staffing them with immigration officials.

The only reasonable measure I can conceive is Advanced Passenger Information whereas airlines send data about passengers to security services of each country involved (interconnected throughout the EU), so that a person on some database can be "flagged" if he/she buys a ticket and can then be located and/or questioned and/or arrested depending on their legal situation of course.
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Old January 17th, 2015, 07:07 PM   #12302
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Most illegal immigants enter EU in Greece by travelling on the sea,not by land.
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Old January 17th, 2015, 07:07 PM   #12303
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Free movement of EU citizens predates, and is not conditioned, to Schengen agreement.

EU citizens can freely go to UK or Ireland for visits. That they are checked doesn't follow they don't have a right to travel there (work is a bit different from newer member state citizens) for business, leisure, studying. They can also freely enter or exit Iceland, Switzerland and Norway.

It would be a stupid thing for France to spend billions of € every year to re-open and control all land borders. It wouldn't still prevent other EU citizens from crossing it. Unless they wanted to severely hamper flow of commuters or commerce in big metro border regions like Lille, Strasbourg, Metz, Nice-Monaco, Annemasse, they would need certainly more than 100 land crossings and sufficient manpower on all of them to prevent queues. If the goal is to stop jihadists, this money is better spend sending French officers to help Greeks and Bulgarians patrol the Turkish border, or to help Spanish and Italians to patrol the Mediterranean narrows.

You're probably right. I was asking questions, really...thinking out loud. And it's not my business anyway.
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Old January 17th, 2015, 07:09 PM   #12304
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Duly noted.

Which brings up the famous Venn diagram:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5215/...27fac906_b.jpg

(and I realize it's out of date)
Things got complicated:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ies-en.svg.png
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Old January 17th, 2015, 07:11 PM   #12305
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Oy. But Guam seems a stretch. (Besides, it's ours. :-P )
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Old January 17th, 2015, 07:24 PM   #12306
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
You're probably right. I was asking questions, really...thinking out loud. And it's not my business anyway.
I'm just answering.

Why do people get so defensive on this Highway forum anyway? This sub forum community looks much more stressed out than others on SSC like Railways or Airports.

It is a forum, people can ask, answer and also give unsolicited opinions or post information or other materials on subjects here.
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Old January 17th, 2015, 08:17 PM   #12307
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Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Schengen area = EU
- UK & Ireland
- Romania, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Croatia
+ Norway, Iceland, Switzerland
+ Liechtenstein

.. which joined very recently, only after Switzerland. So there was a period with CH member and FL not, thus the CH-FL border becoming a Schengen external border.
This created the somewhat absurd situation that CH was suddenly to control travellers entering from FL, whereas virtually no person controls were carried out on this border before.
Anyway, CH somehow managed to satisfy Brussels without implementing border facilities at the CH-FL border (the fact that FL does not accept air travellers from outside Schengen, so anybody entering from FL must have entered FL from a Schengen state before, was certainly helpful).

A report from 2008 on the issue, with mobile camera monitoring mentioned as a possibility:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/schengen...-inland/586502

Quote:
Der Schweizer Zoll hofft auf eine Kompromisslösung, die nicht eine vollständige Schengen-Aussengrenzkontrolle wäre: "Sonst müssten wir tatsächlich an den Übergängen Zollanlagen bauen."

Möglicherweise werde eine Überwachung mit Kameras genügen, mit systematischer Auswertung. Das alles sei sehr aufwendig und koste viel mehr, als man bisher je an dieser Grenze ausgegeben habe.
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Old January 17th, 2015, 08:30 PM   #12308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Free movement of EU citizens predates, and is not conditioned, to Schengen agreement.

EU citizens can freely go to UK or Ireland for visits. That they are checked doesn't follow they don't have a right to travel there (work is a bit different from newer member state citizens) for business, leisure, studying. They can also freely enter or exit Iceland, Switzerland and Norway.

It would be a stupid thing for France to spend billions of € every year to re-open and control all land borders. It wouldn't still prevent other EU citizens from crossing it. Unless they wanted to severely hamper flow of commuters or commerce in big metro border regions like Lille, Strasbourg, Metz, Nice-Monaco, Annemasse, they would need certainly more than 100 land crossings and sufficient manpower on all of them to prevent queues. If the goal is to stop jihadists, this money is better spend sending French officers to help Greeks and Bulgarians patrol the Turkish border, or to help Spanish and Italians to patrol the Mediterranean narrows.
Whatever some nationalists within Europe may think, punctual road blocking during a police operation is much more efficient than reestablishing border crossings. Or tell me how thousands and thousands of people cross extra-Schengen borders illegally.
They don't want to open the Schengen zone to Romania and Bulgaria, but before these countries entered the EU, criminals went out of these countries anyway, legally or not ! Even the nowadays Iron Curtain between the EU and the "Russian world" isn't well guarder nor well fenced... not to mention the Ceuta / Melilla borders with Morocco.
Furthermore, as someone mentioned above, the terrorists that attacked in France (and previously in Belgium, in the U.K., etc.) were locals. So you can close all the borders you want (even between the Île-de-France region and Picardy or between Flanders and Wallonia), this will not guarantee your security.
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"Richtgeschwindigkeit" should be the default system in all EU motorways & expressways & lane indiscipline should be harshly fought! Down with radars on motorways!
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Old January 17th, 2015, 09:14 PM   #12309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvinus View Post
+ Liechtenstein

.. which joined very recently, only after Switzerland. So there was a period with CH member and FL not, thus the CH-FL border becoming a Schengen external border.
This created the somewhat absurd situation that CH was suddenly to control travellers entering from FL, whereas virtually no person controls were carried out on this border before.
Anyway, CH somehow managed to satisfy Brussels without implementing border facilities at the CH-FL border (the fact that FL does not accept air travellers from outside Schengen, so anybody entering from FL must have entered FL from a Schengen state before, was certainly helpful).
And it was kind of funny that there were still full controls on the Liechtenstein-Austrian border, even though you could've avoided it through Switzerland (no control at the FL-CH border and only customs control at the CH-A border).
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Old January 18th, 2015, 12:35 AM   #12310
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And it was kind of funny that there were still full controls on the Liechtenstein-Austrian border, even though you could've avoided it through Switzerland (no control at the FL-CH border and only customs control at the CH-A border).
I think that there were technically controls on the FL-CH border - as mentioned above, cameras were installed on the border. But similarly to Andorra, San Marino and the Vatican City, the need for identity checks were pretty much eliminated by the lack of air access to those states. As I recall, FL also has very strict laws surrounding residency, so it wasn't much of a problem to control the border by camera. On the subject of blocking, GROBIN is right - random road blocking at any point at any time is far more useful than establishing border crossings in the EU. Border crossings can be easily bypassed without problems, but it's much harder to escape random controls. I've seen quite a few random border checks in Poznań train station - and quite a few Ukrainians led away in handcuffs.
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Old January 18th, 2015, 12:39 AM   #12311
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I think it is just hysteria, now the media are concentrated on terrorists, soon they will concentrated on Greece elections.
Btw an interesting thing is that Czech republic is one of the biggest producer of methamphetamine, so sometimes Czech custom and police officers make random controls on some routes from Poland to Czech republic. The simply fact is that in Poland it is simple to buy pills against cough that have ephedrine, that because you don't need there a recipe to buy them. So now the business is that couriers go to Poland and buy lot of pills and then go back to Czech republic, where they extract the ephedrine and then produce the drug. Germany and Czech republic are pushing Poland to change the situation, so that the pills can be bought only if you have a correct medical recipe and with a maximum of few boxes. It worked in Czech republic and Slovakia.
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Old January 18th, 2015, 12:57 AM   #12312
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I've never taken fake medicines, they can kill you.
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Old January 18th, 2015, 12:59 AM   #12313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
On the subject of blocking, GROBIN is right - random road blocking at any point at any time is far more useful than establishing border crossings in the EU. Border crossings can be easily bypassed without problems, but it's much harder to escape random controls. I've seen quite a few random border checks in Poznań train station - and quite a few Ukrainians led away in handcuffs.
Yes, and annoying to normal citizens way away from the border .

By the way, why Poland do not open its borders to Ukrainians Slavic neighbors fleeing war?

Last edited by John Maynard; January 18th, 2015 at 01:14 AM.
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Old January 18th, 2015, 01:26 AM   #12314
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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Yes, and annoying to normal citizens way away from the border .

By the way, why Poland do not open its borders to Ukrainians Slavic neighbors fleeing war?
It might be annoying, but it's far less annoying than having to wait several hours on the border. As for Poland opening the border, why? Most of Ukraine is stable and safe - there's no reason to open the border. Poland has started to evacuate ethnic Poles, but ordinary Ukrainians - there's just no need.
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Old January 18th, 2015, 01:31 AM   #12315
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but if UA is stable and safe, then you can open border. If it is insanity then you need to close so it doesn't spill in
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Old January 18th, 2015, 01:39 AM   #12316
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! That's good to know. Mine's probably a bit too old. I'll have to dig it out. :-)

EDIT (post digging-out). It's not too old. But not by much. Good for 10 years starting March 2005, so I'd need a new one anyway. I thought U.S. passports were good for 20 years.
Quoting myself because I just realized this means I can't go to Europe at the moment. (Since I don't have a passport that will be "valid for at least three months after the date [I] intend to leave.") Some of you will be glad to know that.
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Old January 18th, 2015, 01:40 AM   #12317
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Poland is bound by Schengen Agreement so it can't legally do such a thing as open an external EU border.
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Old January 18th, 2015, 02:25 AM   #12318
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What happens to the Ukrainians who are caught in Poland, are they directly expelled?

As a matter of fact, Schengen borders are very permeable when it comes to non-European, non-Christian, fleeing war Southern "refugees". And Ukrainians are Europeans, mostly Christians, Slavic as Poles are, fleeing war neighbors "refugees" (if you take into consideration the same criteria as for the others, we can say that they are many "safe and stable places" prior to EU too even sometime their own country )

Last edited by John Maynard; January 18th, 2015 at 02:33 AM.
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Old January 18th, 2015, 07:11 AM   #12319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
but if UA is stable and safe, then you can open border. If it is insanity then you need to close so it doesn't spill in
If war and refugees were to get to the Polish border, which isn't very likely, I don't think a border post is going to be much help.
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Old January 18th, 2015, 10:05 AM   #12320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GROBIN View Post
Whatever some nationalists within Europe may think, punctual road blocking during a police operation is much more efficient than reestablishing border crossings. Or tell me how thousands and thousands of people cross extra-Schengen borders illegally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
On the subject of blocking, GROBIN is right - random road blocking at any point at any time is far more useful than establishing border crossings in the EU. Border crossings can be easily bypassed without problems, but it's much harder to escape random controls. I've seen quite a few random border checks in Poznań train station - and quite a few Ukrainians led away in handcuffs.
So basically, you support a police state .

The fact is that the efficiency of these controls is close to zero, contrary to a proper border station were you can get caught at any time, no matter how prepared you are. Actually, organized crime and smugglers are way smarter than these random checks: they send a “scout" car or more a few kilometers ahead to spot such road blocks and controls, alerting them to reroute if it’s the case . The famous “go fast” drug cartels that cross Europe on powerful cars full of drugs or weapons at high speed in nearly total impunity thanks to Schengen.

For my part, I had a very embarrassing misadventure last summer: I was on holiday in France and used to go to the beach, a few kilometres away from the place I was staying. Having foreign plated vehicle, I was stuck almost every time in one of these random customs controls - 30 kilometers from the border - I was shelled with very unpleasant and dull questions like the 10’000 Euros and very personal issues, IDs, vehicule permit, trunk opening, drug dogs, scrutinising me and my car in every detail > just to go the beach , I felt like I was crossing border to Russia !

Furthermore, I traveled across Europe long before Schengen, and couldn't recall of any “hours waiting” on the border (in Western Europe). As for Switzerland, very few things have changed: border stations and checks haven’t disappeared, and they never was “hours waitings”. I think you are giving too much importance to Schengen .
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