daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 26th, 2015, 09:39 PM   #12421
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,791
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
If only a portion of this money would have been spent to put decent roads in Finland (where you're stuck on 1X1 60-80 km/h roads) .
Investing in roads and investing in frontiers are two completely different things. A funny idea to compare them.

And the things are not that straightforward. Most of the 1+1 trunk road network (still) is in a rather good shape. During the summer time, an average cruising speed of 95 km/h is pretty easy to be achieved. It does not make a major difference to the unlimited Autobahns in Germany. Due to the congestion and shock waves, the average cruising speed seldom exceeds 100 km/h.

During the winter time, lower speed limits apply, the default being 80 km/h. The money invested to the surveillance of the border is probably less than making 20 kilometers of heated highway to overcome the winter speed limits.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 26th, 2015, 09:50 PM   #12422
Autoputevi kao hobi
srBska Kraljica
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Vladicin Han
Posts: 4,240
Likes (Received): 4063

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
No, I work for the Italian National Metrological Institute, but we're coordinating a European Project with experiments in several nations - Cz Rep included.
Have you ever been in Serbia ?
If not,do you have any plans for visiting my country ?
Autoputevi kao hobi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 09:53 PM   #12423
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,791
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Slovenia was admitted in Schengen even with border disputes with Croatia.
There is a number of open territorial disputes in Europe where an EU or a Schengen member country is involved:

- Greece/Turkey
- France/Italy (Mont Blanc summit dispute, freezed)
- Netherlands/Germany (Ems estuary, freezed)
- Spain/UK (Gibraltar)
- Spain/Portugal (Olivenza)
- Canada/Denmark (Hans Island, Greenland)
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 09:57 PM   #12424
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,400
Likes (Received): 2079

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
There is a number of open territorial disputes in Europe where an EU or a Schengen member country is involved:
- Netherlands/Germany (Ems estuary, freezed)
Agreement was signed in October 2014 (source) - after 550 years.
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 09:58 PM   #12425
volodaaaa
Registered User
 
volodaaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 3,228
Likes (Received): 1746

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputevi kao hobi View Post
Have you ever been in Serbia ?
If not,do you have any plans for visiting my country ?
Just ensure the nice gals handing out leaflets about road safety will be still promenading all over border crossing next summer so that there will be something to look at (among Syrian women pushing their cars). (this is my attempt to get back on topic)
__________________
Been/drove my car in: SK, CZ, D, A, H, PL, I, F, E, RSM, CH, FL, SLO, HR, SRB, BiH, MK, GR, BG, RO


x-type liked this post
volodaaaa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 10:13 PM   #12426
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,447
Likes (Received): 2183

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
- Spain/UK (Gibraltar)
- Spain/Portugal (Olivenza)
Those are already consolidated borders. The border line is clear, the problem is the other country wants more land.
In the case of Balkan borders, the problem is the demarcation of the boundary, since border lines run through mountains, forests and, especially, rivers that changed their course throghout the history, so the natural pre-1908 Austro-Hungarian - Ottoman border along the Sava river doesn't necessarily match all the way with the current natural HR - BiH border.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 10:26 PM   #12427
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,723

For both cases in Spain...

- Olivenza village. It was conquered by Spain to Portugal but Portugal conquered some lands in South America. They agreed to return to previous position. Problem?, almost all south American countries got the independence in the next years. Therefore... it should be Brazil who would have to release its land to Argentina. Obviously they didn't do at all, and Olivenza remains in Spain.
Portuguese is barely spoken due to Franco policy but it has some speakers in the village


- Gibraltar case. There is no doubt about "Gibraltar mainland" (apart of some breaking news to hide other corruption cases, for instance).
The quarrel is in the neutral case. In fact, airport and stadium are in a neutral area, not British area. However, the airport has an international terminal and it is able to make a flight from anywhere in Spain to Gibraltar and return to La Linea without crossing borders (they made the terminal, a plane and only a plane operated for two or three years and... that was all).
The other "hot spot" is that soberanity is about the rock and the entrance to the harbour. The rock is planning to be enlarged over the sea... and there is nothing written against or pro it


BTW, about Olivenza case, there is a former bridge built by Portugal to help them if necessary. It is destroyed because of the river. There is a paralel international bridge but former one has not been rebuilt. Reason?. It should have to be done by both governments (it is international now) and Portugal considers it is their business.


Anyway, providing that there are not many big cities near the border in the whole edge, the possibility to use services in the other country or to go for business, shopping malls and so on is important
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 10:42 PM   #12428
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,525
Likes (Received): 21227

These standoffs in Gilbraltar and Olivenza look more like useful distractions.

Something politicians in Spain, whenever is some domestic trouble, can use to cause temporary distraction, especially if they create queues in La Línea and then all TV crews go down there.

It is the typical conflict neither country has a real interest in solving soon. Things are not helped because UK, contrary to Spain, have many different shades of sovereignty for its overseas territories, unlike Ceuta, Melilla, the Ballearics and the Canarias.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 10:42 PM   #12429
WB2010
Registered User
 
WB2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 628
Likes (Received): 1789

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Do not worry, it is the most strictly controlled border in the EU. About every meter is electronically monitored, and there is a restricted border zone on the both sides. Most of the border line of 1340 km is located in a deserted wilderness. Therefore, anyone moving close to the border is an exception and subject to be spotted easily.

The Finnish-Russian border is not only the longest between any EU country and Russia - is longer than all other such borders put together (Poland/Kaliningrad Oblast, Lithuania/Kaliningrad Oblast, Latvia/Russia and Estonia/Russia): 1340 km vs 1003 km (210 km + 227 km + 276 km + 290 km respectively).
WB2010 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 11:32 PM   #12430
DanielFigFoz
Registered User
 
DanielFigFoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 4,428
Likes (Received): 890

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post


BTW, about Olivenza case, there is a former bridge built by Portugal to help them if necessary. It is destroyed because of the river. There is a paralel international bridge but former one has not been rebuilt. Reason?. It should have to be done by both governments (it is international now) and Portugal considers it is their business.
I don't think that the new bridge was built with Spanish authorisation, but they accepted it as a fait accompli when the Portuguese started building it. I suspect the new bridge wasn't built earlier because the Portuguese government wouldn't accept putting border control there, but with Schengen the border is ignorable.

I took some photos there in 2012:








Last edited by DanielFigFoz; January 26th, 2015 at 11:39 PM.
DanielFigFoz está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 11:41 PM   #12431
DanielFigFoz
Registered User
 
DanielFigFoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 4,428
Likes (Received): 890





__________________

Corvinus, Verso, los77 liked this post
DanielFigFoz está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 11:44 PM   #12432
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,471
Likes (Received): 2083

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputevi kao hobi View Post
Have you ever been in Serbia ?
If not,do you have any plans for visiting my country ?
Of the former yugoslav countries we only have relations with Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia Herzegovina
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 11:46 PM   #12433
Penn's Woods
Deadpan Snarker
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,241
Likes (Received): 779

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
That's the Spanish Extremadura, right?
__________________
I didn't vote for him....

DRIVEN IN BEEN IN:
AL CA CT DE DC FL GA ID IL IN KY ME MD MA MI MN MO MT NH NJ NY NC ND OH OR PA RI SC SD TN UT VT VA WA WV WI WY ---
AB BC MB NB NS ON PE QC SK ---
A B CH D F GB I L NL
Penn's Woods no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 11:52 PM   #12434
John Maynard
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lausanne (CH); Warsaw (PL)
Posts: 534
Likes (Received): 376

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Investing in roads and investing in frontiers are two completely different things. A funny idea to compare them.

And the things are not that straightforward. Most of the 1+1 trunk road network (still) is in a rather good shape. During the summer time, an average cruising speed of 95 km/h is pretty easy to be achieved. It does not make a major difference to the unlimited Autobahns in Germany. Due to the congestion and shock waves, the average cruising speed seldom exceeds 100 km/h.

During the winter time, lower speed limits apply, the default being 80 km/h. The money invested to the surveillance of the border is probably less than making 20 kilometers of heated highway to overcome the winter speed limits.
When you see an underdeveloped and aging road network vs. high-tech electronic borders with Russia, you can sincerely ask some questions about the government priorities and spending.

You may probably achieve the 95 km/h average speed on the few motorways that Finland counts, but no way on the 1+1 trunk roads, though general speed limit is 100 km/h, but many (if not majority) stretches are 80 km/h, with local limits sometime down to 50-60 km/h, even outside built-up areas.
By the way, I drive often in Germany and in Poland, and to make a long journey (400-800 km) with an average speed of 140-150 km/h is nothing extraordinary to achieve, of course out of congestion and peak hours.
Also, you can drive that way even in winter .
As a matter of fact, I drove many times in Finland. I remember that the route from Tampere to Tornio (c. 630 km) took me 9 hours, without any stop either than gasoline/toilet/coffee, which makes a "cruising" speed of under 70 km/h, despite having few traffic and in summer. This is much slower than if I did the same distance in Germany.

Not sure about the last one, as "extreme" surveillance of 1340 km border must be very costly...

Anyway, here is a picture of the Swedish-Finnish border in Aavasaksa (near the Polar Circle, and which I crossed some times ago):

Last edited by John Maynard; January 27th, 2015 at 12:04 AM.
John Maynard no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 11:54 PM   #12435
Corvinus
License plate spotter
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: H / D / CH
Posts: 1,057
Likes (Received): 1190

Yes - the "Bem-vindo" is a nice gesture toward visiting Portuguese.
(the smaller sign "Red de carreteras ..." is already in Spanish)
Corvinus no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 27th, 2015, 12:05 AM   #12436
DanielFigFoz
Registered User
 
DanielFigFoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 4,428
Likes (Received): 890

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
That's the Spanish Extremadura, right?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvinus View Post
Yes - the "Bem-vindo" is a nice gesture toward visiting Portuguese.
(the smaller sign "Red de carreteras ..." is already in Spanish)
The Extremaduran government has a pro-Portuguese language policy, it is taught to some extent at least in schools there and there are attempts to stop the further decline of Portuguese in the area the photo was taken in but I don't think anyone's very hopeful now. I found myself readily understood there in Portuguese, more so than elsewhere in Spain, bar Galicia.
__________________

Penn's Woods liked this post
DanielFigFoz está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 27th, 2015, 12:40 AM   #12437
aubergine72
Registered User
 
aubergine72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,020

Turkey - Bulgaria. This fence will be extended. It was placed to stop illegal immigration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benjaminn View Post
__________________

ВОДА liked this post
aubergine72 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 27th, 2015, 12:58 AM   #12438
Eulanthe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes (Received): 410

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
- Gibraltar case. There is no doubt about "Gibraltar mainland" (apart of some breaking news to hide other corruption cases, for instance).
The quarrel is in the neutral case. In fact, airport and stadium are in a neutral area, not British area. However, the airport has an international terminal and it is able to make a flight from anywhere in Spain to Gibraltar and return to La Linea without crossing borders (they made the terminal, a plane and only a plane operated for two or three years and... that was all).
The other "hot spot" is that soberanity is about the rock and the entrance to the harbour. The rock is planning to be enlarged over the sea... and there is nothing written against or pro it
Well, to be fair, Spain also placed all the control facilities in the neutral zone, too. It would make sense to simply amend the Treaty of Utrecht to get rid of the neutral zones - La Linea could use the tax revenue from businesses being built up there, too. But you're wrong about the airport - Spain never built the extension into La Linea. They were supposed to, but it didn't happen. It's too difficult to explain, but the concept was that passengers could enter the terminal from La Linea on Spanish domestic flights without passing border control, while passengers from Gibraltar would pass the Schengen external border inside the terminal. The Guardia Civil would be located on Spanish territory, so passengers from Gibraltar would 'enter' Spain at that point. The same would have worked in reverse - so landing from Madrid, you could either exit to La Linea without control, or you could pass Spanish exit border control and Gibraltar entry control. I don't remember what caused the Spanish to not bother with the terminal in La Linea, but I seem to recall that the mayor of La Linea was causing trouble (as usual...).
Eulanthe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 27th, 2015, 01:01 AM   #12439
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,723

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
That's the Spanish Extremadura, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvinus View Post
Yes - the "Bem-vindo" is a nice gesture toward visiting Portuguese.
(the smaller sign "Red de carreteras ..." is already in Spanish)
Yes it is. And I would state that it is the first signal related to a welcome I see only in Portuguese (neither French, neither English, neither Arabic)


Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
Yes.



The Extremaduran government has a pro-Portuguese language policy, it is taught to some extent at least in schools there and there are attempts to stop the further decline of Portuguese in the area the photo was taken in but I don't think anyone's very hopeful now. I found myself readily understood there in Portuguese, more so than elsewhere in Spain, bar Galicia.
off-topic... In Spain we have "official language schools" which are a type of language high school to get up to C1 degree of some languages.

Each school decides which languages offers (all of them offer English and French, almost all German and... there is one with 23 languages...)
But half of Portuguese students are in Extremadura.
You will not find many in Galicia due to languages are closed together (they would prefer to learn another one) and other areas have few population near the border
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 27th, 2015, 02:57 AM   #12440
Penn's Woods
Deadpan Snarker
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,241
Likes (Received): 779

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Well, to be fair, Spain also placed all the control facilities in the neutral zone, too. It would make sense to simply amend the Treaty of Utrecht to get rid of the neutral zones - La Linea could use the tax revenue from businesses being built up there, too. But you're wrong about the airport - Spain never built the extension into La Linea. They were supposed to, but it didn't happen. It's too difficult to explain, but the concept was that passengers could enter the terminal from La Linea on Spanish domestic flights without passing border control, while passengers from Gibraltar would pass the Schengen external border inside the terminal. The Guardia Civil would be located on Spanish territory, so passengers from Gibraltar would 'enter' Spain at that point. The same would have worked in reverse - so landing from Madrid, you could either exit to La Linea without control, or you could pass Spanish exit border control and Gibraltar entry control. I don't remember what caused the Spanish to not bother with the terminal in La Linea, but I seem to recall that the mayor of La Linea was causing trouble (as usual...).
I'm lost. Is Gibraltar in Schengen?
__________________
I didn't vote for him....

DRIVEN IN BEEN IN:
AL CA CT DE DC FL GA ID IL IN KY ME MD MA MI MN MO MT NH NJ NY NC ND OH OR PA RI SC SD TN UT VT VA WA WV WI WY ---
AB BC MB NB NS ON PE QC SK ---
A B CH D F GB I L NL
Penn's Woods no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
highways, motorways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium