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Old February 14th, 2015, 01:28 AM   #12521
John Maynard
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Ceuta and Melilla border fences are probably built also for Spanish showoff: "we work hard to protect our country from the African\Arab\Muslim\terrorist invasion."
I really think that Morocco should regain these lands .

As for terrorists, never heard of "illegals" planning and putting bombs or assaulting in EU. They were all with proper national EU papers, even born in the EU and having national EU citizenship .

Most of all, they are many EU nationals and legal residents that are now "emigrating" to fight among and as terrorists .
And which many of them are the "core" of these terrorists organizations in Syria and Irak .
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There's a big difference between the Iron Curtain and the outer Schengen border, despite the similar appearance.
Actually, they are even worse then the previous one .
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Iron Curtain was built to prevent citizens of the Eastern Bloc to migrate abroad. East European citizens were treated as prisoners, slaves, by their dispotic regimes. The Iron Curtain represents the failure of the communism, because, if walls were required to keep their people inside, it means that life under communism was really a hell.
Emigration of the elite and highly skilled persons - which they needed desperately - was their main problem, and they tried by all mean of repression and oppression to keep them in their hand, fortunately communism have failed in Europe 25 years ago.
By the way, they are people behind the "EU Curtain" that lives in an oppressive regime - like Russia, and are desperate to flee in EU. it's another senselessness of this "fortress" . The difference is that back then, Western Europe would had welcome them and protect them, now they are turning their backs on them.
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The outer Schengen border, instead, don't prevent anybody to travel if he has proper documents. It's aimed to stop illegal immigration, drug, illegal trade,... The abolition of border controls within Europe has, as side effect, the creation of a "fortress" with the outside.
Ironically, same can be said when the Iron Curtain was in place .

The "European fortress" term was invented by the Nazi's, it was a plan to fortify the whole of Europe - plans that were concretized by the EU itself. An appealing idea taken up by the EU bureaucrats .

Last edited by John Maynard; February 14th, 2015 at 01:53 AM.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 01:55 AM   #12522
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I really think... trololol...
Why the wanton hysterics? The EU external border fences and the Iron Curtain have as much in common with each other as an ordinary fence surrounding a private property and a prison fence have, aka the mere appearance. You claim to be a great lover of democracy, so instead of trying to demonize others with ludicrous argumentum ad Hitlerum, why don't you ask for an EU wide referendum on softer border controls? We all know you'd resoundingly lose, that's why you're trying to accuse the others of being undemocratic and Nazi-lite.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 11:16 AM   #12523
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I really think that Morocco should regain these lands .
Why? Those areas have been Spanish for centuries and are inhabitated by Spanish people. They don't want to be part of Morocco and they will became refugees if Morocco annex them. Morocco should accept the fact, it can be a sovereign country even without Ceuta and Melilla. It's like Switzerland claimed its sovereignity over Campione d'Italia and Buesingen.

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Emigration of the elite and highly skilled persons - which they needed desperately - was their main problem, and they tried by all mean of repression and oppression to keep them in their hand, fortunately communism have failed in Europe 25 years ago.
By the way, they are people behind the "EU Curtain" that lives in an oppressive regime - like Russia, and are desperate to flee in EU. it's another senselessness of this "fortress" . The difference is that back then, Western Europe would had welcome them and protect them, now they are turning their backs on them.
Those fleeing communism were asylum seekers and Western Europe welcomed that for that reason. Migrants from non-war torn developing countries, like Morocco or Tunisia are economical migrants, and they can reside in Europe only if they meet certain requirements, such a permanent job and a house. Come on, the USA, Canada and, especially, Australia, have stricter rules than EU on that!
Now nobody stop a Russian, Turk, or Moroccan to get a touristic visa and visit Western Europe. He just go to the embassy, pay and follow the standard procedure. Before 1989 for Warsaw Pact countries citizens it was totally impossible, except with particular permits given only to those well connected with the party.

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Ironically, same can be said when the Iron Curtain was in place .
Yes, the "antifascist protection wall". Everybody knew that the "antifascist protection" was just a political excuse to inprison their citizens within their countries.

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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
The "European fortress" term was invented by the Nazi's, it was a plan to fortify the whole of Europe - plans that were concretized by the EU itself. An appealing idea taken up by the EU bureaucrats .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 07:43 PM   #12524
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Why? Those areas have been Spanish for centuries and are inhabitated by Spanish people. They don't want to be part of Morocco and they will became refugees if Morocco annex them. Morocco should accept the fact, it can be a sovereign country even without Ceuta and Melilla. It's like Switzerland claimed its sovereignity over Campione d'Italia and Buesingen.
But at the same time, Gibraltar have been British for more than 300 years and is inhabited by British people, but the Spanish government is putting pressure and want to swallow it into his own territory against the will of the Rock inhabitants. It's funny, because Morocco also want to "repossess its territories" just a few kilometers away .
By the way, Crimea was inhabited by Russians for centuries and still is, until some Soviet bureaucrats decided in 1954 to attach it to the Ukrainian SSR for paperwork reason .

As for Büsingen and Campione d'Italia, Switzerland never had any territorial claims for them. Quite the contrary, these two enclaves petitioned Switzerland for annexation on several occasions, even with referendums (per ex., in 1918 Büsingen voted at 96% to join the Swiss Confederation), but this was rejected due to the Swiss desire to maintain neutrality .
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Those fleeing communism were asylum seekers and Western Europe welcomed that for that reason. Migrants from non-war torn developing countries, like Morocco or Tunisia are economical migrants, and they can reside in Europe only if they meet certain requirements, such a permanent job and a house. Come on, the USA, Canada and, especially, Australia, have stricter rules than EU on that!
Now nobody stop a Russian, Turk, or Moroccan to get a touristic visa and visit Western Europe. He just go to the embassy, pay and follow the standard procedure.
Same as those fleeing "Putinism" repressive regime .
But, as said earlier these are not welcome to the "West" anymore.

No way, USA do not have anything like "EU Curtain", only a "light and cheap" mostly not barbed barrier, which doesn't even cover the Mexican border, but parts of it.
They were never interested to build another Berlin Wall or Iron Curtain, unlike the EU.
Furthermore, Canada nearly doesn't have any fences nor barriers on his border, and Australia none.
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Before 1989 for Warsaw Pact countries citizens it was totally impossible, except with particular permits given only to those well connected with the party.
That's not entirely true. I know that hundred of thousands Polish people - not necessarily related to the communist party - were having holidays "in the West" during the 1970's and 1980's. Many were returning yearly. Certainly, it needed an official authorization to "go to the West", but it wasn't too difficult to obtain, if you fulfilled all the papers (and you weren't a criminal). The Government also provided 100 USD pocket money (a considerable sum for Poles at that time) to those traveling to the West.
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Yes, the "antifascist protection wall". Everybody knew that the "antifascist protection" was just a political excuse to inprison their citizens within their countries.
You should now that they built it to protect themselves from a Western "invasion" and illegal immigrants-emigrants, terrorists and spies . Now EU is "imprisoning" its own people as well .
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
It is also written in the link you provided that "Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship" .

Indeed, the EU politics and bureaucrats could earn at least 3 Godwin's point on that:
1) Using and wide-spreading a Nazi term "word to word" and idea.
2) Putting it into effect and concretizing it.
3) Using propaganda and publicity for it.
Apparently, they are perfidiously recognizing some virtues to Hitler and his Third Reich . Which, by the way, many ideas were taken and applied after WWII.

Anyway, why this "law" is only applying for nazi Germany, and not Stalinism/Maoism and all the totalitarian states/regimes as well ?

Last edited by John Maynard; February 14th, 2015 at 07:57 PM.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 08:07 PM   #12525
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Anyway, why this "law" is only applying for nazi Germany, and not Stalinism/Maoism and all the totalitarian states/regimes as well ?
In Spain there is a variation of this law thanks to our politicians sons of a b: The longer a discussion goes on, more probable is that someone will say the topic is ETA (the terrorist group everyone knows).

Anyway, this is again off-topic. We should go back before this thread gets deleted.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 08:31 PM   #12526
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A little "timeout"

On the famous US-Mexico border, some illegals immigrants tried to drive over the border fence with a SUV:



The news title was: "illegal immigrants get stuck trying to drive over U.S.-Mexico border fence".
They did not bother to cross the border illegally, but from there to build an illegal highway over it to bring their car with them .
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Old February 14th, 2015, 10:39 PM   #12527
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haha, they high-centred it, but surprised they weren't able to... jump on the hood and make it work

I really really like the idea and give them A for effort

of course it makes basically no sense to take a car out of Mexico, in Mexico a used car is worth double what it costs in the US...
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Old February 15th, 2015, 02:02 AM   #12528
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But at the same time, Gibraltar have been British for more than 300 years and is inhabited by British people, but the Spanish government is putting pressure and want to swallow it into his own territory against the will of the Rock inhabitants. It's funny, because Morocco also want to "repossess its territories" just a few kilometers away .
For this reason I agree that Gibraltar should stay British if their citizens want that. Spain should accept it. We're in EU, how can a small British exclave scares Spain? I understand in the past, when the British empire could threat Spain, but now? They can see it like San Marino for us or Monaco for the French.

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As for Büsingen and Campione d'Italia, Switzerland never had any territorial claims for them. Quite the contrary, these two enclaves petitioned Switzerland for annexation on several occasions, even with referendums (per ex., in 1918 Büsingen voted at 96% to join the Swiss Confederation), but this was rejected due to the Swiss desire to maintain neutrality .
Also the Austrian region of Vorarlberg voted to join Switzerland after WWI, but the Swiss refused. Switzerland is probably the only country that refused to annex more land.

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Same as those fleeing "Putinism" repressive regime .
But, as said earlier these are not welcome to the "West" anymore.
I think "Putinism" has more consent in Russia than the old communism. And expatriating from Russian Federation is easier compared to Soviet Union and its satellite states. It doesn't justify the lack of press freedom, the cheated elections, the corruption, the homophoby that are common in Russia, though.

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No way, USA do not have anything like "EU Curtain", only a "light and cheap" mostly not barbed barrier, which doesn't even cover the Mexican border, but parts of it.
They were never interested to build another Berlin Wall or Iron Curtain, unlike the EU.
Furthermore, Canada nearly doesn't have any fences nor barriers on his border, and Australia none.
Well, actually only tiny parts of the outer EU border are heavily fortified. Spain-Morocco and Bulgaria-Turkey are like the iron curtain, but for example Croatia-Bosnia is very porous.

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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Indeed, the EU politics and bureaucrats could earn at least 3 Godwin's point on that:
1) Using and wide-spreading a Nazi term "word to word" and idea.
That's sadly true! Adjectives like fascist or neonazi are often abused by pro-EU media to describe anti-EU right wing parties and movement, in order to delegitimate them. Those movements can be called far right, populist, eurosceptic, conservative,... but neonazi is often overkilling.
When neonazi fight against pro-Russians in Ukraine, instead, they became EU's friends.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 10:42 PM   #12529
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Everyone! Please, stop with the discussion about politics and so on unless it's directly connected to borders. I'm begging you - this thread is vital for my research, and if it gets locked permanently, it will really be a huge loss. Please?
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Old February 16th, 2015, 12:07 PM   #12530
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An appealing idea taken up by the EU bureaucrats .
How much contact do you have with crossing borders, immigration and the like? Seems little, if you don't know that EU is more liberal than US, Canada or Australia.
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Old February 16th, 2015, 06:11 PM   #12531
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How much contact do you have with crossing borders, immigration and the like? Seems little, if you don't know that EU is more liberal than US, Canada or Australia.
It's true, the USA, Canada and Australia are very reluctant to give access to foreigners convicted even for petty crimes. The EU, instead, is more "liberal" from this point of view, and this is not a good thing for us. We have already our native criminals and we don't need to import more of them.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old February 16th, 2015, 06:34 PM   #12532
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It's true, the USA, Canada and Australia are very reluctant to give access to foreigners convicted even for petty crimes. The EU, instead, is more "liberal" from this point of view, and this is not a good thing for us. We have already our native criminals and we don't need to import more of them.
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
It's true, the USA, Canada and Australia are very reluctant to give access to foreigners convicted even for petty crimes. The EU, instead, is more "liberal" from this point of view, and this is not a good thing for us. We have already our native criminals and we don't need to import more of them.
You seem to confuse immigration policies and actual border "curtaining and isolation".
While, I agree that USA and Canada have tougher immigration policies than EU, especially for "criminals", they do have quite porous borders and nothing like "border controls everywhere and anywhere" in place in EU .
And it's true: EU unlike the US, give "visa-free" pass to anyone from Honduras, one of the most dangerous and criminally ruled country in the world, and to many other "unstable and heavily perilous" countries. Moreover, EU customs don't even ask them question when they arrive .
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Old February 16th, 2015, 06:36 PM   #12533
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How much contact do you have with crossing borders, immigration and the like? Seems little, if you don't know that EU is more liberal than US, Canada or Australia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
It's true, the USA, Canada and Australia are very reluctant to give access to foreigners convicted even for petty crimes. The EU, instead, is more "liberal" from this point of view, and this is not a good thing for us. We have already our native criminals and we don't need to import more of them.
You seem to confuse immigration policies and actual border "curtaining and isolationism".
While, I agree that USA and Canada have tougher immigration policies than EU, especially for "criminals", they do have quite porous borders and nothing like "border controls everywhere and anywhere" in place in EU .
And it's true: EU unlike the US, give "visa-free" pass to anyone from Honduras, one of the most dangerous and criminally ruled country in the world, and to many other "unstable and heavily perilous" countries. Moreover, EU customs don't even ask them question when they arrive .
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Old February 16th, 2015, 06:39 PM   #12534
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EU customs (especially the French and Germans) even randomly stop and search members from other Schengen countries. Seems you know very little about crossing borders within the EU yourself. You don't even know the difference between customs and immigration control.
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Old February 16th, 2015, 06:46 PM   #12535
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EU customs (especially the French and Germans) even randomly stop and search members from other Schengen countries. Seems you know very little about crossing borders within the EU yourself. You don't even know the difference between customs and immigration control.
Apparently, you know little which country belongs to Schengen and didn't understood what I was trying to pinpoint .
Also, I was myself controlled by them on many occasions, despite I come from a Schengen country .
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Old February 16th, 2015, 06:58 PM   #12536
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I think "Putinism" has more consent in Russia than the old communism. And expatriating from Russian Federation is easier compared to Soviet Union and its satellite states. It doesn't justify the lack of press freedom, the cheated elections, the corruption, the homophoby that are common in Russia, though.
Not necessarily, as USSR was much bigger than today's Russia, there are borders that didn't existed back then. Russians always need visas and fulfill all the requirements to "go to the West", so basically "not too much" have changed for them; but it was way easier for a "dissident" (anyone fleeing Eastern Bloc) to find his way here in those times.

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Well, actually only tiny parts of the outer EU border are heavily fortified. Spain-Morocco and Bulgaria-Turkey are like the iron curtain, but for example Croatia-Bosnia is very porous.
Actually, the border is quite heavily surveilled and fenced from Norway to the Balkans. Yet, the last one is composed of countries that are candidate for an EU adhesion, and are working harder and harder to meet the criteria and are closer every year. That may be the reason why their borders are not so strongly guarded (just like Poland in the early 2000's, prior to EU adhesion).

Last edited by John Maynard; February 17th, 2015 at 12:41 AM.
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Old February 16th, 2015, 08:19 PM   #12537
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Apparently, you know little which country belongs to Schengen and didn't understood what I was trying to pinpoint .
Also, I was myself controlled by them on many occasions, despite I come from a Schengen country .
Really? Quote? Link?
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Old February 16th, 2015, 08:25 PM   #12538
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Really? Quote? Link?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sc...ticipation.svg
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Old February 16th, 2015, 08:48 PM   #12539
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I meant quote or link something stating that I don't know anything about Schengen.
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Old February 16th, 2015, 09:02 PM   #12540
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Well, I am from Switzerland - which belong to Schengen - and you said first that I don't know anything about " crossing borders within the EU" and "between customs and immigration control."
Quote? Link? See, the question is returned.
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