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Old June 16th, 2015, 10:27 PM   #13121
ElviS77
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Sorry, more OT: In Sweden he's still called Medel-Svensson (Average Svensson). In Norway, he's Ola Nordmann, which I find marginally more interesting. "Ola" is, of course, a traditional Norwegian name, and "Nordmann" means Norwegian. However, Norman(n) is also a fairly common surname...
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Old June 16th, 2015, 10:34 PM   #13122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
I always hear against economic migrants, but why not let economic migrants? They want to work, they want to buy, it would grow the economy and improve everyone's life.
I understand the refugee / legal immigration, but maybe the problem is similar to the American, where the legal path to immigration is absurdly complex, slow, expensive and liable to outright failure - so everyone jumps over the fence instead.

I feel like I should be able to live in any country in the world that I want to without any restriction at all.
The problem is that the number of jobs available even in rich countries is not unlimited, especially in those years of crisis. While there are many natives struggling for years to get a job, I don't see how we can provide jobs to a theorically unlimited number of immigrants.
When an immigrant arrives here, he needs some money to live. If he doesn't manage to get a job, he has three "options":
1) abusing the welfare system;
2) starting an illegal activity (stealing, selling drugs,...);
3) begging and being a homeless in the street.
The first two "options" are undesirable for obvious reasons, while the third one gives the immigrant a very bad life, probably as bad or worse than the one he used to live in his poor homecountry (providing he wasn't prosecuted or involved in a war, otherwise he would qualify for asylum and that's another story).
You can thus realize that a law, like the one in Italy, that allows foreigners (non EU citizens and non asylum seekers) to live there only if they have a job contract here, makes perfectly sense.

What rich countries should do, is to invest money to improve life in poorer countries, by building schools, hospitals, houses, infrastructures ,or funding projects to improve agriculture and provide services like running drinkable water, sewage, electricity and communication networks. Those poor people would rather get a better life in their homecountry, instead of sell whatever they have, cross the desert by foot, jump in an old boat that may sink at any moment, risk to be arrested, and finally become a homeless in an European city.
Instead, we are keeping exploiting poor countries for their natural resources and cheap labour, we support their dictators if they make our interests, and we bomb them if they don't make our interests.

Sorry for the long OT.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old June 16th, 2015, 10:57 PM   #13123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
The problem is that the number of jobs available even in rich countries is not unlimited, especially in those years of crisis. While there are many natives struggling for years to get a job, I don't see how we can provide jobs to a theorically unlimited number of immigrants.
When an immigrant arrives here, he needs some money to live. If he doesn't manage to get a job, he has three "options":
1) abusing the welfare system;
2) starting an illegal activity (stealing, selling drugs,...);
3) begging and being a homeless in the street.
The first two "options" are undesirable for obvious reasons, while the third one gives the immigrant a very bad life, probably as bad or worse than the one he used to live in his poor homecountry (providing he wasn't prosecuted or involved in a war, otherwise he would qualify for asylum and that's another story).
You can thus realize that a law, like the one in Italy, that allows foreigners (non EU citizens and non asylum seekers) to live there only if they have a job contract here, makes perfectly sense.

What rich countries should do, is to invest money to improve life in poorer countries, by building schools, hospitals, houses, infrastructures ,or funding projects to improve agriculture and provide services like running drinkable water, sewage, electricity and communication networks. Those poor people would rather get a better life in their homecountry, instead of sell whatever they have, cross the desert by foot, jump in an old boat that may sink at any moment, risk to be arrested, and finally become a homeless in an European city.
Instead, we are keeping exploiting poor countries for their natural resources and cheap labour, we support their dictators if they make our interests, and we bomb them if they don't make our interests.

Sorry for the long OT.
Exactly my opinion. I would just like to add something. If we made embassies in charge of accepting applications for an asylum, the emigrants would not have to cross whole continents and oceans to get asylum (and risk their lives).

And to skip back to IBC thread. The current EU policy negates whole Schengen system. The very recent re-establishment of checks on borders with Italy is a suitable proof.
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Old June 16th, 2015, 11:09 PM   #13124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
What rich countries should do, is to invest money to improve life in poorer countries, by building schools, hospitals, houses, infrastructures ,or funding projects to improve agriculture and provide services like running drinkable water, sewage, electricity and communication networks.
Sounds logical. I also thought so. But if buying food - e.g. from US - is much cheaper than grow and harvest food...........
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
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Old June 17th, 2015, 04:13 AM   #13125
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Quote:
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What rich countries should do, is to invest money to improve life in poorer countries
This is being done, but the real problem is the corruption of the elites and dysfunctional societies. Some African countries are incredibly rich in natural resources but the money goes into only a few people's pockets. Wonder how that could be fixed. I sometimes get the feeling that people in those countries moan about the situation but wait for others to solve their problems instead of doing something against it themselves.
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Old June 17th, 2015, 04:24 AM   #13126
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I think the aid in cash that has been done for so long has only hurt those countries by removing accountability to the elites and government. If people paid all costs of government via taxes, they would be more inclined to demand better value for dollar, whereas if foreign aid supplies most of the budget, it is seen as "free". Look how African countries love Depp Blatter because he gave them a soccer stadium

Poor countries are poor only because their society and government structure is bad and not from any inherent natural reason (look how many resource-rich countries are desperately poor, while countries without any resources whatever manage to be wealthy, like Switzerland, Japan or Israel)
Maybe just need to export advice instead of dollars
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Old June 17th, 2015, 11:30 AM   #13127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
I think the aid in cash that has been done for so long has only hurt those countries by removing accountability to the elites and government. If people paid all costs of government via taxes, they would be more inclined to demand better value for dollar, whereas if foreign aid supplies most of the budget, it is seen as "free". Look how African countries love Depp Blatter because he gave them a soccer stadium
Moreover, aids in cash to poor countries may end up in the wrong pockets (i.e. in the hands of local corrupt elites), while a new school, hospital, drinking water pipeline or power plant would directly benefit local population.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 17th, 2015, 04:26 PM   #13128
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Currently Italian police is doing random checks at the borders with Austria and Slovenia to catch illegal immigrants.

Local news headlines: "Friuli Venezia Giulia (Italian region bordering A and SLO), suspends Schengen agreement"
Like an Italian region had the power to suspend an international agreement...
The presence of police at Schengen borders to stop suspect people isn't against Schengen. Only systematic controls are.
I'm surprised that news channels publish such ignorant and misleading headlines.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 18th, 2015, 12:58 AM   #13129
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ChrisZwolle (and others)- do you remember that I mentioned some sort of inland checkpoint at Neum that exist(ed)?

I've found some references here to it - https://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntr...o-neum/compact - it seems that some sort of checkpoint definitely existed on the inland road between Neum and Mostar. I'm not sure if it still exists, but I'll try and check this summer. It may explain why BiH barely bothers to control Neum 1/2 if they also have an additional checkpoint in Neum.
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Old June 18th, 2015, 02:05 AM   #13130
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Looks like Bosnians are building a new road there.
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Old June 18th, 2015, 10:29 AM   #13131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
ChrisZwolle (and others)- do you remember that I mentioned some sort of inland checkpoint at Neum that exist(ed)?

I've found some references here to it - https://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntr...o-neum/compact - it seems that some sort of checkpoint definitely existed on the inland road between Neum and Mostar. I'm not sure if it still exists, but I'll try and check this summer. It may explain why BiH barely bothers to control Neum 1/2 if they also have an additional checkpoint in Neum.
I've never heard of that There are definitely no crossings on the road to inland Bosnia (well actually Herzegovina )
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Looks like Bosnians are building a new road there.
Yes, new Neum-Stolac road is currently under construction
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Old June 18th, 2015, 10:36 AM   #13132
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Very news:: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33168125 http://www.dw.de/hungary-to-erect-an...nce/a-18522563 Hungary start building a border fence to stop immigration!!!No more waiting on EU laws!Don't know if this will stop invasion from Syria,Iraq,Africa..
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Old June 18th, 2015, 10:52 AM   #13133
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Very news:: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33168125 http://www.dw.de/hungary-to-erect-an...nce/a-18522563 Hungary start building a border fence to stop immigration!!!No more waiting on EU laws!Don't know if this will stop invasion from Syria,Iraq,Africa..
This is not against EU laws, as the Hungarian-Serbian border is the outer EU\Schengen border and Schengen states must patroll it. Spain already built a fence on the border with Morocco, and Greece did the same at the Turkish border.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old June 18th, 2015, 10:57 AM   #13134
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Looks like Bosnians are building a new road there.
I have a paper road map of Croazia from probably around 2006-2007 and there is already a road from Neum to the rest of BiH.
Side note: the map shows Croatian A1 dashed till the MNE border and "opening 2008".
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 18th, 2015, 11:37 AM   #13135
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Recently I traveled into Canada from the United States via the Blue Water Bridge and back into the United States via the Queenston-Lewiston Bridge. It is a very simple process to cross the border. All that was required was presenting our passports and telling our travel plans and then we drove on through. It felt just like stopping at a toll booth except that we were crossing in between two countries. It was a new experience coming from New Zealand where the only way to leave the country is to cross over an ocean.

Aside from the actual border crossing the biggest clue we were in Canada was the roads. In Michigan the freeways were far more bumpy and had a concrete surface, whereas the freeways we drove on through Ontario were super smooth asphalt.









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Old June 18th, 2015, 11:59 AM   #13136
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The last 2 times I have travelled into Romania at OTP there have been FOREX people watching the border police check passports. One time it was German police and the next time it was French.

Anyone know what is going on?
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Old June 18th, 2015, 12:17 PM   #13137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I have a paper road map of Croazia from probably around 2006-2007 and there is already a road from Neum to the rest of BiH.
Ofcourse there's an existing road already but it's pretty curvy and narrow, so a new one is UC
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Old June 18th, 2015, 12:23 PM   #13138
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Quote italystf:

"I have a paper road map of Croazia from probably around 2006-2007 and there is already a road from Neum to the rest of BiH.
Side note: the map shows Croatian A1 dashed till the MNE border and "opening 2008"."

Obviously Croats were far too optimistic then...
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Old June 18th, 2015, 01:42 PM   #13139
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Quote:
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I have a paper road map of Croazia from probably around 2006-2007 and there is already a road from Neum to the rest of BiH.
That road is drawn (as paved) on my map of Yugoslavia.
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Old June 18th, 2015, 06:47 PM   #13140
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Quote:
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That road is drawn (as paved) on my map of Yugoslavia.
As far as I know, there was nothing wrong with that road as such - only that it was typically Bosnian - slow and twisty. But it has been paved for years as far as I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nestvaran
I've never heard of that. There are definitely no crossings on the road to inland Bosnia (well actually Herzegovina )
I found other references somewhere, but I can't find them now. It's a mystery - I can't find any references in local languages to it at all.
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