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Old July 13th, 2015, 09:44 AM   #13261
volodaaaa
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Quote:
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And what would actually change for Greece? Nothing, because there's already control on its border with Bulgaria.
But what is the sense of that?
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Old July 13th, 2015, 10:16 AM   #13262
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Now I know this isn't a forum for immigration politics, but in trying to make some sense in this discussion I wish to point this out:

The problematic mass immigration to the EU is mostly a south-to-north movement. The most important countries in the south are Spain (having a land border with Morocco), Italy (having a long coastline and being opposite to Libya, a more or less collapsed state) and Greece (having a land border and a long maritime border with Turkey).

As we can see, a large part of this mass immigration doesn't stop in Spain, Italy and given the recent situation certainly not in Greece, but continues to move north. While all three are Schengen members, Greece's neighbours are not. When continuing north from Greece, one either has to cross the Adriatic or then go through some non-Schengen countries.

So we may have a situation where non-Schengen countries (Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia) have more interests to control their Schengen borders (with Greece) than the other way around.
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Old July 13th, 2015, 01:53 PM   #13263
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So we may have a situation where non-Schengen countries (Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia) have more interests to control their Schengen borders (with Greece) than the other way around.
Not really since all these countries are just a transit station for immigrants. The want to reach rich countries... So increased controls just cost money for those mentioned countries with no benefit for them.
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Old July 13th, 2015, 02:03 PM   #13264
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But what is the sense of that?
No control on the borders BG-RO and RO-H.
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Old July 13th, 2015, 05:15 PM   #13265
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Quote:
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No control on the borders BG-RO and RO-H.
What about BG-GR?
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Old July 13th, 2015, 07:53 PM   #13266
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As I said, control would stay there.
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Old July 14th, 2015, 12:10 AM   #13267
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Quote:
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As I said, control would stay there.
But why? Do you want to exclude Mediterranean countries from Schengenland?
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Old July 14th, 2015, 01:14 AM   #13268
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But why? Do you want to exclude Mediterranean countries from Schengenland?
I think the problem with Verso's plan is that it ignores the one huge elephant in the room that no-one is talking about - the possibility for Romanian Roma to cross borders freely. From everything I've read, there are no technical reasons why Romania couldn't join Schengen tomorrow (Bulgaria is still a mess with corruption/etc) - but with confidence in the EU being so low, I don't think anyone wants to take responsibility for opening the door.

What I'd like to see at least is some sort of semi-Schengen being implemented. The border would still only be able to be crossed at set points, but physical controls would be conducted on a sort of "drive slowly, stop if directed" basis.
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Old July 14th, 2015, 01:20 AM   #13269
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But surely Romanian Roma can cross the border freely, they are EU citizens. I mean they have to show their ID but can they be denied entry?
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Old July 14th, 2015, 01:44 AM   #13270
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Exactly, Romanian Roma are EU citizens, so they can already travel freely throughout the EU.

Quote:
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But why? Do you want to exclude Mediterranean countries from Schengenland?
Western Europeans don't want to open the GR-BG border because of all those immigrants in Greece, so we can at least open the BG-RO and RO-H borders (not that I care too much about them).
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Old July 14th, 2015, 01:46 AM   #13271
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So your solution is to kick Greece out of Schengen?
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Old July 14th, 2015, 01:49 AM   #13272
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Old July 14th, 2015, 01:51 AM   #13273
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For Greece nothing would change.
It doesn't have any land border with Schengen countries.
Only by air travel one can take advantage of Schengen (not sure if by boat too).
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Old July 14th, 2015, 02:07 AM   #13274
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But surely Romanian Roma can cross the border freely, they are EU citizens. I mean they have to show their ID but can they be denied entry?
The ignorance among Europeans is mind-blowing.
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Old July 14th, 2015, 10:53 AM   #13275
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Quote:
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I think the problem with Verso's plan is that it ignores the one huge elephant in the room that no-one is talking about - the possibility for Romanian Roma to cross borders freely.
As said above, Roumanian Roma can pass the border just as freely as other roumanians (and they have done it already!). The only check is that their papers are valid, and that can be a little tricky because their are still some of them that don't have valid ID's (I don't have a figure, probably something between 10.000 and 50.000). But I really don't think that Schengen is not opening because of them; instead I'm pretty sure that the main reason was (and somehow still is) the level of coruption amongst state oficials. Of course, given the last 2 years, probably we are now in another category, all by ourself, since there are hundreds of penal cases against alllmost any big oficial.

For example, in my (and vinterriket) town are indicted the mayor and also the county council president. And that situation is similar to many other towns.

Last edited by pasadia; July 14th, 2015 at 08:04 PM.
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Old July 14th, 2015, 11:33 AM   #13276
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But surely Romanian Roma can cross the border freely, they are EU citizens. I mean they have to show their ID but can they be denied entry?
I think it's more of a theoretical thing - although they can pass freely, there's still the opportunity to check the Schengen Information System in case they're wanted for any crimes. Schengen removes that.

It's just xenophobia, that's all. Romania is really starting to deal with corruption (unlike Bulgaria - where scandal after scandal involving traffic police happens) and really should be in.
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Old July 14th, 2015, 03:15 PM   #13277
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Romanians are overrepresented in crime statistics in the Netherlands, especially in fields like shoplifting and pickpocketing. To the average Henk and Ingrid (PVV voters), Romania is a third world country that shouldn't be in the EU. Unfortunately that image is not really improving if you read about arrested 'Romanians with no known residence' all the time.

Opening the borders allows huge opportunities. Not only for law-abiding citizens and companies, but also for criminals.

Crime in the Netherlands has notably decreased over the recent years though, despite Schengen.
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Old July 14th, 2015, 03:37 PM   #13278
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That's my point Chris - Schengen accession for Romania means the right wing parties of Europe will have an excuse to force coalition governments into accepting Danish-style controls while still maintaining the illusion that Schengen is still alive.

To bring this back kind-of on topic, from a technical point of view - I cannot understand why Schengen had to mean the wholescale destruction of border crossings. The Swiss approach at the minute seems to work well, as it allows the border to be monitored without requiring systematic checks or police presence at the border. I haven't read about any problems with what they're doing (nor with what the Norwegians do) - yet it seems that it's a far better solution than the current option.
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Old July 14th, 2015, 03:42 PM   #13279
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Is it really required that RO and BG need to join Schengen together? If one of the two fulfills all requirements earlier, why also the other should wait?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old July 14th, 2015, 03:44 PM   #13280
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I think border between Romania and Bulgaria is at Schengen par, that means not very secured. Only for external border (with Ukraine, Moldova, Serbia) there were big investments for securing.
It was always the plan for them to join together.

But since most of the border is on the Danube, that shouldn't be such a problem.
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