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Old September 24th, 2015, 08:41 PM   #13741
Sunfuns
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All this talk is nice and proper, but what do you do? What can already bankrupt Greece with their hundreds of islands do to keep desperate migrants out? And if that's not possible how could you expect them to keep most of them? Turkey is not in an admirable situation either and Lebanon is even worse.

I don't have any answers either... Before these events the unwritten strategy was to keep the entrance difficult thus limiting absolute numbers. Doesn't work with Syrians and Iraqis anymore...
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Old September 24th, 2015, 08:43 PM   #13742
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why the hell are german bureaucrats still calling does people "refugees", and practically giving them blessings to arrogantly cross multiple borders wherever the hell they want to and without any documents?
furthermore, they criticize other countries for enforcing the law and stopping illegal border crossings???
Because most of them are refugees. Us not wanting them anyway is a different question.

What would you expect frontline countries to do (Greece in particular)? How about Syrians? What would be your strategy if you were one?
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Old September 24th, 2015, 09:13 PM   #13743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
All this talk is nice and proper, but what do you do? What can already bankrupt Greece with their hundreds of islands do to keep desperate migrants out? And if that's not possible how could you expect them to keep most of them? Turkey is not in an admirable situation either and Lebanon is even worse.

I don't have any answers either... Before these events the unwritten strategy was to keep the entrance difficult thus limiting absolute numbers. Doesn't work with Syrians and Iraqis anymore...
come one. Greece is maintaining enormous army. for instance, regarding the number of fighters/strikers in the air force, they are second largest force on the whole Mediteranean, after Turkey (yes, larger than France!)
and army can do a lot regarding the immigrants or refugees.
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Old September 24th, 2015, 09:15 PM   #13744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Because most of them are refugees. Us not wanting them anyway is a different question.

What would you expect frontline countries to do (Greece in particular)? How about Syrians? What would be your strategy if you were one?
in turkey, lebanon, jordan, they are refugees - but when they leave those safe countries they become migrants - and when they start crossing borders illegally and without any ID they become illegal migrants!
other people from pakistan, bangladesh, africa, etc... are not at any point refugees!
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Old September 24th, 2015, 09:27 PM   #13745
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come one. Greece is maintaining enormous army. for instance, regarding the number of fighters/strikers in the air force, they are second largest force on the whole Mediteranean, after Turkey (yes, larger than France!)
and army can do a lot regarding the immigrants or refugees.
In a pararell universe, good EU would encourage Greece to deploy army, to defend borders and to let in only those refugees that are desperate, thankful and calm. Armies of other EU countries would be asked to help.

In our universe, rotten EU would mark Greek racists, xenophobes, the media would be full of blackmailing, menacing, and, mind that Greece is in economic troubles. Hungary is scary example.

Merkel invited dangerous people, daring to disrespect border authorities (I am still to timid to even joke with border officiers), then blame Greece to let them go, then blame Hungary to don't let them go, then telling that everyone is welcome in Europe followed by "Germany can't stand that load, we should impose a quota system" with nebolous methodology of setting out the critical values, putting the load to second world countries, that have never had colonies, neither were involved in war, by telling that whole Europe should take the responsibility.
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Old September 24th, 2015, 09:42 PM   #13746
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In a pararell universe, good EU would encourage Greece to deploy army, to defend borders and to let in only those refugees that are desperate, thankful and calm. Armies of other EU countries would be asked to help.
It is exactly what happened last night, however, the Greek government refused it.
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Old September 24th, 2015, 09:44 PM   #13747
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They are refugees no matter how far they get from the war zone and they are pretty thankful to Germany for taking them (at least right now). How much more thankful could they possibly be?

I'm a native of East Europe as well, but the xenophobia so prevalent in that part of the continent is now alien to me...

Anyway let's move back to roads and trains where we can all agree on something
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Old September 24th, 2015, 09:51 PM   #13748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
They are refugees no matter how far they get from the war zone and they are pretty thankful to Germany for taking them (at least right now). How much more thankful could they possibly be?

I'm a native of East Europe as well, but the xenophobia so prevalent in that part of the continent is now alien to me...

Anyway let's move back to roads and trains where we can all agree on something
Ad hitlerum in form of ad xenophobum. Nobody here is xenophobe towards current refugees (neither me). I would be mad at EU even in case if the refugees were white christians violating law, attacking police and demanding impossible requests.

But the current irresponsible policy of EU can easily create a backgroud for new Hitler. I don't like that idea, but I am affraid he is already spreading his ideas in some pub in Germany.
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Old September 24th, 2015, 10:39 PM   #13749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
They are refugees no matter how far they get from the war zone and they are pretty thankful to Germany for taking them (at least right now). How much more thankful could they possibly be?

I'm a native of East Europe as well, but the xenophobia so prevalent in that part of the continent is now alien to me...

Anyway let's move back to roads and trains where we can all agree on something
ok, but why nobody has balls to point on Arabic countries such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Jordan etc. to accept part of those migrants/refugees? they have shortly and openly said "no soup for you, come back one year" and the world is keeping its mouth shut. what is that? xenophobia? courage? oil-games?
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Old September 24th, 2015, 11:13 PM   #13750
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ok, but why nobody has balls to point on Arabic countries such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Jordan etc. to accept part of those migrants/refugees? they have shortly and openly said "no soup for you, come back one year" and the world is keeping its mouth shut. what is that? xenophobia? courage? oil-games?
Those Arab countries, unlikely European countries, practically ignore human rights, so they don't care to give asylum to desperate people fleeing a war, regardless the fact that they have the same language, religion and culture.
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Old September 24th, 2015, 11:49 PM   #13751
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Perhaps Merkel wants to negotiate with Assad to make him stay in power to make sure all those nice people coming to Europe are too afraid ever to go home

I like that the UK airlifts refugees out of camps in the Middle East. It's a good signal that they don't benefit from illegal border crossings..... But that's not how Merkel feels about it.

I heard a radio interview with an Afghan man travelling through Denmark heading to Sweden. The group of young men had originally intended to stay in Germany but he made it very clear to the reporter that they did not accept the way they had been treated in Germany.

They had been forced to sleep in a tent the first night and after having been there for four days they were still not promised they could bring their families and what about a flat?

This was NOT why they had come to Europe.

Boy are there gonna be a lot of young frustrated men with breached expectations who can sit around telling each other how badly they are being treated.

Off to the The Hauge with Merkel please!
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Old September 25th, 2015, 12:15 AM   #13752
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I like that the UK airlifts refugees out of camps in the Middle East. It's a good signal that they don't benefit from illegal border crossings.....
I don't know if it's substantiated with any data, but apparently those Syrians who come to Europe right now are substantially better educated than those left in the camps in the Middle East. They certainly have more initiative so perhaps Mrs Merkel will do ok with them after all.

Afghans is a different story, but the numbers are much smaller as well. Without Syrian war all this wouldn't be happening.
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Old September 25th, 2015, 12:29 AM   #13753
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End of another day, and Croatia's position has not changed. Horgos 2 is still shut as well.

However, Harmica on the HR/SLO border is now open, as is Bregana in the outbound direction for trucks.
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Old September 25th, 2015, 12:33 AM   #13754
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Of course it's the people with most human- and cash resources that go to Europe.

That's been the case with every refugee crisis that I know of.

But it's also a fact that people from the Middle East (and Somalia) are the people that integrate into our society with the least success.

The Vietnamese, Chileans, Tamils and so forth have all come and blended into society and their kids are as well represented in the universities as ethnic Danes.

That is not the case with people from the Middle East. Their sons go to jail instead of University. Their daughters do of course go to the university but then they're married off to some illiterate cousin with a 1400th century mindset and then the same sad story can start off again in the next generation.

.... And it's NOT about religion. The Bosnians are doing fine and so are their children.
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Old September 25th, 2015, 12:36 AM   #13755
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Online newsportal origo.hu reports "government sources" informed that the H/HR border will be closed down this weekend or at the early next week at the latest. According to politicians giving this information, "far worse" events than those which occurred at the closed Röszke (H/SRB) crossing one week ago can be expected.

The legal side of the closure is that anyone entering Hungary without proper travel documents is to be detained from then on.

It is not known what the Croatian government's response will be. A "Plan C" was mentioned, for which two main speculations emerged: dropping off the illegal immigrants on the "green border" (instead of regular crossings) so they would arrive in Hungary in a chaotic manner; or returning them to Serbia.
"Plan B" is transporting them to the Hungarian and Slovenian borders, which is currently going on.

Current year-to-date number of illegal immigrants intercepted in Hungary is around 240'000, with 202'000 from Serbia and the rest from Croatia.

http://www.origo.hu/itthon/20150924-...-hatarnal.html
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Old September 25th, 2015, 12:56 AM   #13756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I don't know if it's substantiated with any data, but apparently those Syrians who come to Europe right now are substantially better educated than those left in the camps in the Middle East. They certainly have more initiative so perhaps Mrs Merkel will do ok with them after all.
.
yes, and they have unleashed their education and initiative at hungarian police recently...

...and that hungarian police, what were they thinking not letting that pure intelligentsia pass the border through the fields?
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Old September 25th, 2015, 12:57 AM   #13757
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Of course it's the people with most human- and cash resources that go to Europe.

That's been the case with every refugee crisis that I know of.

But it's also a fact that people from the Middle East (and Somalia) are the people that integrate into our society with the least success.

The Vietnamese, Chileans, Tamils and so forth have all come and blended into society and their kids are as well represented in the universities as ethnic Danes.

That is not the case with people from the Middle East. Their sons go to jail instead of University. Their daughters do of course go to the university but then they're married off to some illiterate cousin with a 1400th century mindset and then the same sad story can start off again in the next generation.

.... And it's NOT about religion. The Bosnians are doing fine and so are their children.
It's probably true that Middle Easterners have more difficulty than others (although maybe Africans?), but everyone eventually integrates. We do need to understand though that such things often takes several generations to happen. Pull of our societies and lifestyle is actually quite strong.

In Switzerland I'm not aware of major issues, crime is pretty low here anyway. Sure some immigrant groups do better than others, but that's inevitable.

I just counted I have 7 co-workers of Middle Eastern or North African descent. All but one has at least MSc degree. One woman is clearly religious, but another one who grew up in Algeria told me that she is an atheist and doesn't believe in any of that shit. So people are very different even if they come from supposedly fundamentalist countries.
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Old September 25th, 2015, 01:15 AM   #13758
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I hope that you will be right and i'll think back of my thoughts on the subject with shame in 20 years time.

But if all you have is hope then you don't have a lot to hold on to
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Old September 25th, 2015, 01:20 AM   #13759
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But if all you have is hope then you don't have a lot to hold on to
What else can one have in the matters of future events?
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Old September 25th, 2015, 01:44 AM   #13760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KøbenhavnK View Post


Of course it's the people with most human- and cash resources that go to Europe.

That's been the case with every refugee crisis that I know of.

But it's also a fact that people from the Middle East (and Somalia) are the people that integrate into our society with the least success.

The Vietnamese, Chileans, Tamils and so forth have all come and blended into society and their kids are as well represented in the universities as ethnic Danes.

That is not the case with people from the Middle East. Their sons go to jail instead of University. Their daughters do of course go to the university but then they're married off to some illiterate cousin with a 1400th century mindset and then the same sad story can start off again in the next generation.

.... And it's NOT about religion. The Bosnians are doing fine and so are their children.
People fom Balkan countries are usually more secularized than the Arabs, as they are used to live in an ethnic and religious melting pot for centuries. They were strongly influenced by Mittle-European culture and, later, by communism (this one obviously wasn't good for them, but it didn't encourage religious fundamentalism).
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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