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Old September 27th, 2015, 03:00 PM   #13781
MichiH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
But if I close this thread, it will just spill over into the Roadside Rest Area - or worse, clog up the country threads.
That's why I started the "Schengen Area" threat. It was closed for an unjustified reason. The same reason applies to this thread. I'd like to have reopened the "Schengen Area" thread again and move the discussion there.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 03:07 PM   #13782
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I don't want to talk about politics, but... what is the interest of Hungary in building a wall along the Slovenian border? If an illegal immigrant would cross that border, he'll do it in H -> SLO direction, so why Hungary is interested in preventing illegal immigrants to leave the country?
Moreover, while H-SRB and H-RO border fences could have been justified with the task of controlling the outer Schengen border (as mandated by EU laws), the H-SLO border fence is a plain outrage to EU laws.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 03:12 PM   #13783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
That's why I started the "Schengen Area" threat. It was closed for an unjustified reason. The same reason applies to this thread. I'd like to have reopened the "Schengen Area" thread again and move the discussion there.
We could reopen this thread in the Skybar, since it's not strictly road-related. Posts about Schengen can continue to be posted in the International border crossing thread, as long that they are about road traffic across borders.
Posts about Schengen applied to rail, air or sea traffic or about the Schengen agreement in general, should better stay outside the H&A section.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 03:27 PM   #13784
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Do it.
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old September 27th, 2015, 03:44 PM   #13785
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Discussion about refugees and general European policy does not belong in this forum. This forum is about road infrastructure, not migration, Merkel's position on refugees, border fences, etc.
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Old September 27th, 2015, 03:48 PM   #13786
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But it affects to roads if border crossings are closed.
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
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See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old September 27th, 2015, 04:35 PM   #13787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I don't want to talk about politics, but... what is the interest of Hungary in building a wall along the Slovenian border? If an illegal immigrant would cross that border, he'll do it in H -> SLO direction, so why Hungary is interested in preventing illegal immigrants to leave the country?
Moreover, while H-SRB and H-RO border fences could have been justified with the task of controlling the outer Schengen border (as mandated by EU laws), the H-SLO border fence is a plain outrage to EU laws.
I said it elsewhere - Schengen doesn't stop Hungary (or anyone else) building a fence on the border. What it does is require border crossings to be free from control (or in their language, "obstructions"). So Hungary can have the entire border fenced if they want - but they cannot physically control the border crossings that exist. So if Hungary wants, they can close all the roads leading to the SLO border and fence it off - and it's legal. What wouldn't be legal is to have roads with permanent controls.

I don't think anyone envisioned anyone building barriers post-Schengen, but there's nothing stopping them from doing so.

edit : I've looked at the Schengen Borders Code, and it claims that the border may be crossed at any point. Could be fun where gardens stretch across borders...
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Old September 27th, 2015, 04:44 PM   #13788
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So for a change, let's show a border from outside Europe: this is Lebombo border post between South Africa and Moçambique. As we see from the news report, border closures and aggressive mobs are not limited to Europe's migrant route:



Quote:
The border post between South Africa and Mozambique has been closed until further notice Friday after an unruly mob barricaded the N4 near Ressano Garcia, targeting trucks with South African registration numbers.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/20...-in-mozambique
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Old September 28th, 2015, 12:02 AM   #13789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
I said it elsewhere - Schengen doesn't stop Hungary (or anyone else) building a fence on the border. What it does is require border crossings to be free from control (or in their language, "obstructions"). So Hungary can have the entire border fenced if they want - but they cannot physically control the border crossings that exist. So if Hungary wants, they can close all the roads leading to the SLO border and fence it off - and it's legal. What wouldn't be legal is to have roads with permanent controls.

I don't think anyone envisioned anyone building barriers post-Schengen, but there's nothing stopping them from doing so.

edit : I've looked at the Schengen Borders Code, and it claims that the border may be crossed at any point. Could be fun where gardens stretch across borders...
I guess it anticipates the "unless stated otherwise" rule. You can't break into private property just because there is a border line identical with property territory.
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Old September 28th, 2015, 12:06 AM   #13790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I don't want to talk about politics, but... what is the interest of Hungary in building a wall along the Slovenian border? If an illegal immigrant would cross that border, he'll do it in H -> SLO direction, so why Hungary is interested in preventing illegal immigrants to leave the country?
No. Hungary fears that later on, when H-HR border will be "safe" (i.e. closed for refugees), the Slovenian government will transfer lots of refugees to Hungary, just like the Croatians do it now. Croatian police transports 5-10,000 refugees to Hungary daily.
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Old September 28th, 2015, 12:10 AM   #13791
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Discussion about refugees and general European policy does not belong in this forum. This forum is about road infrastructure, not migration, Merkel's position on refugees, border fences, etc.
Right. But people want to discuss about it, and they want to discuss about it with other forum members they know well from other threads. So either you let them do it or you delete a lot of posts and ban a lot of forum members.
Closing a thread which was (even if not fully orderly) dedicated to the topic and then let people ruin another thread discussing that topic, is, in my opinion, not a good idea.
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Old September 28th, 2015, 12:24 AM   #13792
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I might be wrong, but if the discussion about fences along Schengen area internal borders doesn't fit in Schengen Area thread, where it does?
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Old September 28th, 2015, 12:33 AM   #13793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
I might be wrong, but if the discussion about fences along Schengen area internal borders doesn't fit in Schengen Area thread, where it does?
How about peeking the subject of this forum? Has someone put fences on highways or autobahns? If yes then the discussion is not off-topic.

As the rather gentle moderator statement expressed, the suitable discussion forum for common politics might reside outside the SSC.
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Old September 28th, 2015, 12:36 AM   #13794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Right. But people want to discuss about it, and they want to discuss about it with other forum members they know well from other threads. So either you let them do it or you delete a lot of posts and ban a lot of forum members.
Closing a thread which was (even if not fully orderly) dedicated to the topic and then let people ruin another thread discussing that topic, is, in my opinion, not a good idea.
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Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
I might be wrong, but if the discussion about fences along Schengen area internal borders doesn't fit in Schengen Area thread, where it does?
Come to DLM:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=74
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Old September 28th, 2015, 12:46 AM   #13795
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How about peeking the subject of this forum? Has someone put fences on highways or autobahns? If yes then the discussion is not off-topic.

As the rather gentle moderator statement expressed, the suitable discussion forum for common politics might reside outside the SSC.
This forum is a perfect source of information. When I drove to CZ last weekend the first site to get information was this forum. I also provided some information for other users in case they follow my route or in case they want to avoid driving through Austria.

Sprinkling this topic with little politics (you actially can't avoid) is not a crime. I saw no hatespeech on this forum at all. Just constructive discussion.
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Old September 28th, 2015, 01:30 AM   #13796
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I've just opened this thread in the Domus Ludicrae Maximae:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...#post127417901

Immigration and custom laws in Europe

Please post here not road-related discussions.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 28th, 2015, 01:41 AM   #13797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
I might be wrong, but if the discussion about fences along Schengen area internal borders doesn't fit in Schengen Area thread, where it does?
I think discussion about fences is ok (we spoke about the old PL-D border fence a few pages back) and discussion about physical security - just not the topic of refugees unless it's directly related to border closures.

An interesting question - has any old border crossing infrastructure been "reactivated"?
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Old September 28th, 2015, 10:06 AM   #13798
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The thread already exists:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1812202
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Old September 28th, 2015, 08:17 PM   #13799
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When a border is closed, it is a fact that affects infrastructure, and that is a point worth a discussion right here.

But why it is closed, is a question of politics, and has no relevance regarding infrastructure.

There are countless political forums out there, this just is not one of them.
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Old September 28th, 2015, 11:20 PM   #13800
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Something slightly interesting - I notice that both Norway and Sweden have been significantly beefing up their border crossings.

I'll post more later, but have a look at this - https://www.google.pl/maps/@59.10811...8i6656!6m1!1e1
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