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Old July 1st, 2016, 12:12 PM   #14521
Xicano
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
yes definitely
It's nothing new, my father told me about that internal border in MX when he vacationed there in the 1970's. Back then, before free trade, they were very interested to make sure you wouldn't leave your car in Mexico, due to the barriers to trade... but it's important to note the "security situation" in Mexico is not at in any way a EU (even Bulgaria...) or US standard, so things are more... ****y.

As for the Nordic previous situation, I remember an (American) friend being waved at by the Danish border guards entering the country... "sve Dansk?" "ja ja" ok go in
Which is exactly as it should be, she was doing not anything nefarious or negative for DK...
What do you mean its shitty and the 70s were over 40 years ago

This is what you will find as for security I know first hand lol
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Old July 1st, 2016, 12:26 PM   #14522
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The heavy militarization of US-Mexico border is more related to traffic (drugs flowing north, arms flowing south) than immigration itself. If the problem was only illegal crossing, then more money would be put into less armed, but more spread out, border forces. And things would be calmer in the Mexican side as well.
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Old July 1st, 2016, 12:35 PM   #14523
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Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
One possible metric to estimate the differences in the standard of living is the ratio of the GDP per capita of the neighbors. Yes, I know that this metric is far from being perfect, but it gives some guidance.

Some ratios (based of the 2014 figures of World Bank):

US-Mexico: 5.3
Finland-Russia: 3.9
Spain-Morocco: 9.3
Turkey-Bulgaria: 1.3
Poland-Ukraine: 4.7
Interesting but come on who compares to the US? California by itself has a bigger GDP than France

California 2.424 Trillion
France 2.421 trillion

80% of the EU would look silly being compared to just California not even the US
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Old July 1st, 2016, 12:38 PM   #14524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The heavy militarization of US-Mexico border is more related to traffic (drugs flowing north, arms flowing south) than immigration itself. If the problem was only illegal crossing, then more money would be put into less armed, but more spread out, border forces. And things would be calmer in the Mexican side as well.
Very true, the gross immigration from Mexico to the US has hit 0%

Its all drug related security. The ATF got busted selling guns to the Cartels
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Old July 1st, 2016, 01:09 PM   #14525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
One possible metric to estimate the differences in the standard of living is the ratio of the GDP per capita of the neighbors. Yes, I know that this metric is far from being perfect, but it gives some guidance.

Some ratios (based of the 2014 figures of World Bank):

US-Mexico: 5.3
Finland-Russia: 3.9
Spain-Morocco: 9.3
Turkey-Bulgaria: 1.3
Poland-Ukraine: 4.7
Nice list, but it isn't normalized to the actual cost-of-living (PPP), just nominal income. The difference between USA and Mexico is 3.15, Spain-Morocco 4.48 and Poland-Ukraine 2.91.

Those are nonetheless huge differences.

Source: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD
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Old July 1st, 2016, 01:21 PM   #14526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMB View Post
Nice list, but it isn't normalized to the actual cost-of-living (PPP), just nominal income. The difference between USA and Mexico is 3.15, Spain-Morocco 4.48 and Poland-Ukraine 2.91.

Those are nonetheless huge differences.

Source: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD


Mexico Ahead of the US and most of the EU
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Old July 1st, 2016, 01:49 PM   #14527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xicano View Post
Interesting but come on who compares to the US? California by itself has a bigger GDP than France

California 2.424 Trillion
France 2.421 trillion

80% of the EU would look silly being compared to just California not even the US
Note: GDP per capita.
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Old July 1st, 2016, 02:52 PM   #14528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMB View Post
Nice list, but it isn't normalized to the actual cost-of-living (PPP), just nominal income. The difference between USA and Mexico is 3.15, Spain-Morocco 4.48 and Poland-Ukraine 2.91.

Those are nonetheless huge differences.
It is not about cost-of-living at all, but about GDP. It, expressed as absolute figures and per capita, has some correlation to the standard of living at the national level.

The PPP adjustment would bring some benefits only when talking the salary level of individuals. It takes account the exchange rates only, not e.g. taxation and transfers. When talking abount immigration, the PPP adjustment may partially lead to incorrect conclusions: The immigrants often send money to their relatives in the homeland. The value of the money is not subject to the PPP adjustment at the receiver's side.

As I wrote, the GDP comparison is far from being perfect, but it gives some guidance. I presume we do not disagree on this.
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Old July 1st, 2016, 08:58 PM   #14529
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Originally Posted by Xicano View Post
What do you mean its shitty and the 70s were over 40 years ago

This is what you will find as for security I know first hand lol
Oh yeah, there are plenty soldiers and such around
But on the other side there is need for it

I don't mean it in any way to insult Mexicans, but there are a lot of things going on that would not happen in a normal country. Like El Chapo digging out through the prison or the 40-odd teachers who got "disappeared"...

Anyway lots of British people living lovely retirements in Spain too...
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Old July 1st, 2016, 09:15 PM   #14530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
Oh yeah, there are plenty soldiers and such around
But on the other side there is need for it

I don't mean it in any way to insult Mexicans, but there are a lot of things going on that would not happen in a normal country. Like El Chapo digging out through the prison or the 40-odd teachers who got "disappeared"...

Anyway lots of British people living lovely retirements in Spain too...
The US has more security it just they are not as visible the US has many plain clothed undercover units. ATF CIA FBI etc... As for the need all the Mass shootings Yes it is needed Its just the US wont discuss its real issues having the most murders in the western world and more people in prison than China. When 50 plus people can be murdered at once the US has problems.
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Old July 1st, 2016, 10:54 PM   #14531
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Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
I crossed on E14 in January with goods that I actually needed to declare. There was no staff on the roadside, so I parked my car and went inside the customs house. Even then they didn't bother coming out to actually see the vehicle, just took the documents, spent some time with their computer and then gave them back stamped.

It was maybe -20C outside, the house was nice and warm.
I guess common sense applies in this case - it's not very likely that someone is going to declare something and then attempt to smuggle stuff on top of it, especially when it's -20c outside.

ChrisZwolle - about the unguarded border crossings, the way it works is identical to the Swiss system - if you cross somewhere without physical customs controls, then you're automatically making a declaration that you have nothing to declare. From what I remember, you are allowed to take goods that need to be declared across such crossings, but you need to have it agreed with the Customs service first. So - Schengen is still in full effect (as people can move freely), but goods are not in free circulation.

A lot of the controls operate with spot checks, and I seem to remember that the Norwegians are pretty tough on anyone caught smuggling anything.
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Old July 2nd, 2016, 01:34 AM   #14532
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Originally Posted by Xicano View Post
Very true, the gross immigration from Mexico to the US has hit 0%

Its all drug related security. The ATF got busted selling guns to the Cartels
????

If 1 million of Mexicans emigrate in the USA and 1 million of Americans retire in Mexico, the gross immigration rate may be 0%, but it doesn't mean that the immigration issue doesn't exist.
With or without American retirees going to Mexico, still there would be that million of Mexican that want to enter USA. Maybe most of them are seeking a legal employment, but the rest, instead.... It's still an issue that the USA has to deal with.

Statistic data are just numbers, they often aren't enough to describe the real situation.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 2nd, 2016, 01:40 AM   #14533
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
????

If 1 million of Mexicans emigrate in the USA and 1 million of Americans retire in Mexico, the gross immigration rate may be 0%, but it doesn't mean that the immigration issue doesn't exist.
With or without American retirees going to Mexico, still there would be that million of Mexican that want to enter USA. Maybe most of them are seeking a legal employment, but the rest, instead.... It's still an issue that the USA has to deal with.

Statistic data are just numbers, they often aren't enough to describe the real situation.
The problem is that there still is Migration coming in from Mexico to the US but Majority are central and south americans cubans going through Mexico. Mexico has more than enough jobs for its own people and educated Immigrants but the poor fleeing central american/south america cuba etc.. are looking to get into the US where they have family

Does the EU count all the middle east and africans coming through Italy as Italian Immigrants??



Last edited by Xicano; July 2nd, 2016 at 01:49 AM.
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Old July 2nd, 2016, 02:54 AM   #14534
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Originally Posted by Xicano View Post
Does the EU count all the middle east and africans coming through Italy as Italian Immigrants??


No, of course. Documents (if they have any) are a proof of nationality, not from where they arrived.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 2nd, 2016, 03:31 AM   #14535
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No, of course. Documents (if they have any) are a proof of nationality, not from where they arrived.
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Old July 2nd, 2016, 01:06 PM   #14536
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu0LVcUdJ-M

An interesting, short video that shows the Gibraltar-Spain border as it was in 1964. It's fascinating to see how the town of La Linea was originally nowhere near the border, and even if you look at later pictures -



You can see that the development of La Linea towards the border only happened after the border was closed.

There's also a video of the border gates being closed here -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaMb1Z0NprM

The history of the border there is quite interesting - for instance, the border fence was constructed by the British and not the Spanish.
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Old July 2nd, 2016, 10:23 PM   #14537
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Another video here showing the controls in 1964 - https://youtu.be/U8XK9ZAu7_M?t=162

And the construction of the 1985-2015 border infrastructure here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_pcmoxNhLU
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 05:50 PM   #14538
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In which sense? Maybe there's not a huge income divide between Turkey and Bulgaria, but that's the border between the peaceful and democratic Europe and the conflict-ridden Middle East (together with GR-TR border, of course).
No, I don't think you will find so guarded borders in Europe as the American one. Maybe in the war areas in Ukraine. And I am not sure about the situation on the Moldova-Pridniestrovie and Ukraine-Pridniestrovie borders.

It's not a problem at all for the Polish citizens to cross the Poland-Ukraine border, of course only at the proper border crossing. In any other places it's illegal and may end up very bad for the one who tries it.

And especially the trucks wait in long queues before they get checked. Also in a bus you may wait long (even a few hours). The fastest is to cross the border on foot, and that's why many people travelling from Poland to Lviv take a bus to the border crossing in Medyka, cross it on foot, and take a bus from there to Lviv. There is activity of smugglers, of course, and the border guards try to deal with it, but I am not sure about their effectivness. On the other hand, it's actually impossible to stop it, and the more strict the control is, the more specialised and dangerous illegal groups start to deal with that, as we can see in the North America...

The Polish-Belarusian and Polish-Russian borders are less friendly, but there are anyway far from the US-Mexico border.

The same is with crossing the Bulgaria-Turkey border. A few years ago you only had to buy a visa, which looked like a postage stamp. Directly at the border crossing. Now, from what I know, you buy the visa online.

By the way, big differences between people's incomes and the countries' GDP happen also in EU/Schengen, and it's not considered a problem here... People from Germany come to Poland to buy cheap cigarettes, people travel to the Netherlands to smoke marijuana (which is illegal in most of the EU, but it's legal there), people live in Germany near the Swiss border and work in Switzerland (as in Switzerland you earn much more, but the costs of living are also higher) - and everything works.
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 07:45 PM   #14539
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But the US-Mexico border, its no problem at all for US or Mexican citizens to cross, no visa needed, at the proper crossing, either. And millions of trucks are crossing, and they aren't waiting hours either (maybe 1 hour)... it's an important part of the US / Mexico economy. (but it is tricky for Mexican-registered trucks to get deep into the US for stupid and illegal reasons)
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 08:34 PM   #14540
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No, I don't think you will find so guarded borders in Europe as the American one. Maybe in the war areas in Ukraine. And I am not sure about the situation on the Moldova-Pridniestrovie and Ukraine-Pridniestrovie borders.
Moldova-Pridniestrovie is heavily guarded, both by Russian troops and Moldovan troops. There's also the Nagrano-Karabakh/Azeri, North Cyprus/Republic of Cyprus and South Ossetia-Georgia borders which are still heavily guarded. It's also pretty tough to get away with any illegal crossing of the Russian-Finnish border, and I think in recent years, the Russians have actually been progressively upgrading their border security.

Let's not forget that the Spain-Gibraltar border is completely fenced off, except at three points, with each point being no more than two lanes wide. The border fence there even extends into the sea, and this is also the final border fence between two EU countries.

(final point: are you also on PolishForums? I recognise your username!)
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