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Old November 24th, 2016, 07:09 PM   #14801
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what a word for a spanish speaker !!! how dificult to pronounce it
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Old November 24th, 2016, 09:39 PM   #14802
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No highway between Italia and Slovenija ?
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Old November 24th, 2016, 09:43 PM   #14803
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I remember a movie in the '60 s with the border between France and Italy in the middle of the local restaurant ...
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Old November 25th, 2016, 02:06 PM   #14804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riiga View Post
The Swedish word seems to be in the definite form though, it should be "Gränsövergångsställe" without the t at the end.
It seems to me that all the similar signs at FIN/RUS border display the same wording. The motivation, I guess, is that the place is the only border crossing station nearby.

(BTW, the Swedish spoken and written in Finland, Finlandssvenska, and in Sweden, Rikssvenska, are not exactly the same language. Therefore, there may be differences on how to interpret the grammar. Finlandsvenska is the minority language, and not as actively developing as in language in Sweden. In addition, it is an administrative language, and heavily subject to the influence of Finnish. That is why there are SV/SV translators, translating between Swedish Swedish and Finnish Swedish.)

Last edited by MattiG; November 25th, 2016 at 09:26 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old November 26th, 2016, 07:07 PM   #14805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
It seems to me that all the similar signs at FIN/RUS border display the same wording. The motivation, I guess, is that the place is the only border crossing station nearby.
Another possible explanation is that neither the persons who made the sign, their supervisors nor the persons responsible of installing the sign actually speak Swedish well enough to understand the difference between indefinite and definite forms.
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Old November 26th, 2016, 09:15 PM   #14806
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Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
Another possible explanation is that neither the persons who made the sign, their supervisors nor the persons responsible of installing the sign actually speak Swedish well enough to understand the difference between indefinite and definite forms.
I do not buy that. The linguistics have recognized that Finnishswedish tends to prefer definite forms in many such cases where Swedishswedish would select an indefinite form. Thus, the wording is in line with the local interpretation of the grammar. The separation often begins with this kind of marginal things.

BTW, I was somewhat surprised when I recently opened a few articles about the Swedish grammar. When I was in school, we were taught that there are five declinations for nouns. Now, I read that there are six ones, or five ones, or perhaps even seven ones. My old teacher would be extremely upset of such a disorder. I hope she is too old to understand that the blue book of the Swedish grammar has lost it status of being the Absolute Truth.
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Old November 26th, 2016, 10:33 PM   #14807
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Anyone having images of old Yugoslavian border crossings to Hungary, Greece, Albania, Romania, Austria, Bulgaria and Italy ? Which of the borders were usually congested. I imagine the western borders were popular where roads were leading to the Dalmatian coast ? Thnx
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Old November 28th, 2016, 06:10 PM   #14808
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Old November 28th, 2016, 06:29 PM   #14809
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Is it there?
https://www.openstreetmap.org/search...50.8050/5.7019
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old November 28th, 2016, 06:33 PM   #14810
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It is indeed south of Maastricht, however OSM has jumped the gun because OSM already shows the situation of 2018 and onwards.

Google Maps shows the current situation: https://www.google.nl/maps/@50.78972...m1!1e3!5m1!1e1
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Old November 29th, 2016, 12:57 AM   #14811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tfd543 View Post
Anyone having images of old Yugoslavian border crossings to Hungary, Greece, Albania, Romania, Austria, Bulgaria and Italy ? Which of the borders were usually congested. I imagine the western borders were popular where roads were leading to the Dalmatian coast ? Thnx
For H - YU, there were some posted in this forum, like

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
(looking into Hungary on this one)

I don't think these crossings were overly congested, since
1 - Hungary was not on the path of the major gastarbeiter routes back then (Turks, Yugoslavs and Greeks normally crossed from Austria into Yugoslavia)
2 - Hungarians and other East Bloc'ers could not just travel freely to Yugoslavia, they needed a travel authorization like for visiting a Western country (I don't know if a Yugoslav entry visa was also required).
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Old November 29th, 2016, 10:37 AM   #14812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keokiracer View Post
It is indeed south of Maastricht, however OSM has jumped the gun because OSM already shows the situation of 2018 and onwards.

Google Maps shows the current situation: https://www.google.nl/maps/@50.78972...m1!1e3!5m1!1e1
It's quite interesting looking at the B side and the little spur of Walloon into Flanders - the little spur of French named towns and streets!
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Old November 29th, 2016, 12:35 PM   #14813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvinus View Post
For H - YU, there were some posted in this forum, like







(looking into Hungary on this one)



I don't think these crossings were overly congested, since

1 - Hungary was not on the path of the major gastarbeiter routes back then (Turks, Yugoslavs and Greeks normally crossed from Austria into Yugoslavia)

2 - Hungarians and other East Bloc'ers could not just travel freely to Yugoslavia, they needed a travel authorization like for visiting a Western country (I don't know if a Yugoslav entry visa was also required).

Cool. It looks like Horgos 2 border crossing. But after the federation fell, how fast were they to actually build the "walls". For instance, in the case of Slovenia they already replaced the signposts immidiately.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 03:59 PM   #14814
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Border crossing between Kingdom of Italy and Austro-Hungarian Empire on Stelvio pass, 1881

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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 10:07 PM   #14815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tfd543 View Post
Cool. It looks like Horgos 2 border crossing. But after the federation fell, how fast were they to actually build the "walls". For instance, in the case of Slovenia they already replaced the signposts immidiately.
This is what I've found out - but I'm not 100% on this.

Slovenia took control of the border crossings straight away, but in reality, they had been preparing for it for months. Border crossings were staffed mostly by Slovenians, while they had stopped transferring customs revenues to the central government in Belgrade a while before that. A large amount of the federal government's revenue came through the Slovenian border crossings, hence the JNA attempted to seize them as a priority.

I don't have any information about the SLO-HR border, but from what little I know, they put police controls there pretty quickly. The actual physical crossings took a while to construct.

Croatia had huge problems - they controlled most of the Hungarian border, but because of the war, they had no effective control over their internationally-recognised borders. However, border crossings did exist between Serb-held areas, and Croatia had military/police controls on the border with the RSK.

For instance, I've got a book that talks about the border between Croatian held territory and the RSK. Croatia effectively shrugged their shoulders if someone wanted to go into the RSK - they checked them out, and if there was no reason to detain them, they were free to go.

The situation was always rather fluid, but no borders were actually completely closed, except the border between Croatia and Montenegro. Others were open or closed depending on local conditions - for instance, it was common after the JNA pulled out of Croatia for the RSK military to close roads and to force people to travel on dirt tracks to reach places like Knin. Whether or not you could actually go there depended a lot on who you were and if you had local contacts or not.

What remained of Yugoslavia maintained controls with the Serb-held territories in Croatia and Bosnia, but to all practical extents, these controls were for show/controlling non-Serbs than anything else. A vast amount was smuggled into Bosnia through YU-RS checkpoints, for instance.

Likewise - the border between Croatia and the Croatian-held territories in Bosnia was very lightly controlled. Plenty was smuggled there as well, while controls were maintained for non-Croats. It's not a secret that the Bosniak forces obtained most of their supplies through Croatia, too.

As far as Yugoslav borders with Macedonia and Albania - they were opened pretty quickly and painlessly.

I've posted it elsewhere, but the most fascinating thing about that period is that at least in Sarajevo in 1994, there was at least one functioning "border crossing" between the Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina and the Republika Srpska.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 11:16 PM   #14816
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Thanks. I see. Now I get why Slovenia joined EU so fast. As for the border in Sarajevo, well they had the tunnel of hope but who would dare to use the border at Grbavica bridge ?
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Old December 1st, 2016, 11:44 AM   #14817
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Originally Posted by tfd543 View Post
Thanks. I see. Now I get why Slovenia joined EU so fast. As for the border in Sarajevo, well they had the tunnel of hope but who would dare to use the border at Grbavica bridge ?
Yes, Slovenia was much more prepared for independence, while Croatia only really started moving towards it after the election in April-May 1990. If you look back, it's clear that Slovenia was planning it in the late 1980's under Kucan.

The border in Sarajevo is an interesting one. If you look solely at the facts on the ground, what happened was that in 1994, Republika Srpska opened up what they called a border crossing. The crossing was manned by both police and armed forces of the RS, and it was an attempt to 'normalise' the situation in Sarajevo (which, of course, was massively favourable to the RS) and gain international recognition of the facts on the ground.

The Bosnian Army (and possibly police, but I'm not 100% certain) manned the other side of the bridge, and they were certainly denying passage to men that were able to fight in the war.

But at that time, visits between RBiH-controlled Sarajevo and RS-controlled territory were possible at different times depending on the circumstances. There's a good article here about it - https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.967452513e21
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Old December 1st, 2016, 06:00 PM   #14818
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Heartbreaking. Its must have been like the abolishment of the DDR-BRD border. The only thing to learn from this is that freedom is priceless.
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Last edited by tfd543; December 1st, 2016 at 06:07 PM.
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Old December 1st, 2016, 10:47 PM   #14819
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Heartbreaking. Its must have been like the abolishment of the DDR-BRD border. The only thing to learn from this is that freedom is priceless.
It's quite surreal to walk around Sarajevo today to see just where these crossing points were located. Most people are under the impression that the city itself was not occupied, but then if you go for a walk around Grbavica and Marijin Dvor - you realise just how close the two sides were.

Talking more about these unrecognised borders - from my research, it's clear that most of them were kept open, at least in theory. Croatia never really stopped anyone from entering the RSK during the war there, and the RSK themselves were very open towards outsiders in the first stages of the war. It was only really after things exploded in Bosnia that it became dangerous for certain Western outsiders in Serb-held territory - but even then, there are plenty of accounts of Western journalists travelling around Serb territories by invitation of political leaders.

It's also worth pointing out that Sarajevo was not completely closed off. The airport functioned relatively normally during the war, and Serb forces (that controlled the airport) never really stopped journalists and non-local civilians from coming and going. If you could get into Sarajevo Airport (and it wasn't difficult, just unpredictable as flights were often cancelled due to fighting nearby) - you could pass pretty freely into Sarajevo, with only really restrictions on food and military supplies being enforced by the Serbian side.

I've been hunting for a while about more information about these unrecognised border crossings, but the vast majority of the information is about the front line closest to the ex-Holiday Inn in Sarajevo, probably because that's where all the journalists stayed. But interestingly - these unofficial crossings stayed in use for quite a while post-Dayton.
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Old December 2nd, 2016, 12:30 AM   #14820
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Crazy.... What about in Hercegovina ? Did the Croats set up any borders there ?
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