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Old April 12th, 2017, 12:35 AM   #15221
Ices77
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Yes, in commies time Yugoslavia was considered as a part of let´s say Golden West with all western culture allowed. Quite a contrary to what it is now, when people from former YU get a job in our factories, anyway, I think we welcome them
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Old April 12th, 2017, 01:05 AM   #15222
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Golden? Well, the authorities called it rather "Rotten West".
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Old April 12th, 2017, 01:54 AM   #15223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piotr71 View Post
I double checked and yes, it was Sočerga. Does it make any particular difference?
The road via Sočerga is well known among Slovenes and Croats. It's far less trafficked than e.g. the road via Dragonja, but in the worst days it gets crowded as well, so it would get even worse with a strict border control. The road via Rakitovec on the other hand is virtually unknown (probably because it's a local border crossing, but EU citizens can use it). Even I have never driven there.
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Old April 12th, 2017, 01:58 AM   #15224
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By the way - I got interested by the topic, and by reading some forums, about history and not only, it seems that it was not so difficult in Poland to get a passport, even to the Western countries, although it depended on the specific period (it seems, the 70's were most liberal) and on who you were. For example, if you had already been abroad and you hadn't returned within the specified time, or if someone from your family had gone abroad and hadn't returned, you had very little chance of getting a passport. Or if you had had any contact with some data the state didn't want to reveal to the "enemy", for which you didn't even have to be a soldier, you could work in a factory and have seen some industrial documentation.

It seems our country treated the West as an enemy, who wanted to, basically, attack us (which did have some sense - it was the cold war, after all), but stealing some of our intellectual property (but what for, if the West was always ahead of us in terms of technology?) was - they thought it was - also a good idea for them. However weird it may sound.

It also sometimes happened that the "security service" (a police division, which was fighting with the "enemies of the communist/socialistic system") invited you and unless you agreed to cooperate with them they didn't let you get a passport, but it was rare, it usually happened if they had reasons for doing so (like if you had something to do with the anti-communist underground).

And they asked you in detail, why you want to go abroad, what you want to do there, and so on. You also needed an agreement of your employee (as it was obligatory to be employed and you had a break).

The biggest problems were:
- for many countries you had to get a visa, for which you needed an invitation from someone from the specific country (if I understand it well),
the financial barrier - and to let someone out, the authorities needed a confirmation that he has "enough" money (the limits were extremely low, as for the Western standards, but still high for the Eastern standards).

By the way, the international travels - even within the Eastern bloc - were massively used to buy and sell the goods which were impossible to buy where you lived and easy to buy where you went and the other way round. Because the centralized economy with fixed prices wasn't really efficient in distributing goods, it was often so that it was easy to buy something in one place and extremely difficult to buy it somewhere else. Even within a single country, even within a single neighborhood. Which lead to such a paradox that it was usually much more expensive to buy something second-hand from someone than just in a shop. The prices in shops were lower, but the problem was the product wasn't available at all.
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Old April 12th, 2017, 02:07 AM   #15225
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there were all kinds of restrictions PRL was doing to hurt people

Example, my grandfather in 70's returning to PRL... he had to exchange certain amount of hard currency to get visa, and/or purchase certain things at certain (bad) exchange rate... PRL was very happy to fleece the hard work of the decadent reactionaries who escaped Which also makes the whole "republikflucht" issue kind of interesting. In Gierek era at least, many people who ran away from PRL returned for vacations, etc without too much problems. But someone who escaped DDR and came back, was it easy? Maybe so if he came with a fist-ful of D-Mark for the intershop and a BRD reisepass but still... scary...
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Old April 13th, 2017, 01:07 AM   #15226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
The location is Kornsjø at the south end of Norway. The roads 101 (Norway) and 166 (Sweden) nowadays meet at the border.
Are you sure it is Kornsjö, this appears to be a shorter bridge, also note there are different buildings:


(Pre 1905)


(1955)

Many more historical postcards of Kornsjö in this link:
http://www.haldenkort.net/galleriKornsjo.php
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Old April 13th, 2017, 02:02 PM   #15227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
Are you sure it is Kornsjö, this appears to be a shorter bridge, also note there are different buildings:
Sure I am not sure.

However, the same image is referred by several Wikipedia articles to be taken in Kornsjö. I do not have a better reference in my hands.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ay_in_1934.png
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Old April 13th, 2017, 08:44 PM   #15228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
Are you sure it is Kornsjö, this appears to be a shorter bridge, also note there are different buildings:


(Pre 1905)


(1955)
The upper image was taken in Norway, the lower one in Sweden. I believe the house at the Norwegian side is the same in both images. (There are more chimneys in the image of 1955. The standard of living had raised.)

I did some extra research, and found an areal photo on Kornsjö in Vänerborgs Museum from 1937:



I think the photos match pretty well: The timber yard on the Norwegian side, the tree at the embankment, and the lake just behind the people

BTW, the economical map from 1964 shows the system to switch the sides on the new road:

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Last edited by MattiG; April 13th, 2017 at 08:45 PM. Reason: timber not timer
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Old April 13th, 2017, 10:48 PM   #15229
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Finnish-Swedish border in Tornio/Haparanda pre-1967.
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Countries visited, driven in, (not independent), former:
A B CH CZ D DK E EST F FIN GB (+GBZ) GR H I L LT LV MAL MC N NL PL RUS S SGP SK SLO T TR YU

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Old April 14th, 2017, 01:04 PM   #15230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
The road via Sočerga is well known among Slovenes and Croats. It's far less trafficked than e.g. the road via Dragonja, but in the worst days it gets crowded as well, so it would get even worse with a strict border control. The road via Rakitovec on the other hand is virtually unknown (probably because it's a local border crossing, but EU citizens can use it). Even I have never driven there.
Rakitovec is a bordercrossing only for locals. Nonlocals have to turn around.
For all other there is Podgorje/Jelovice border crossing which is even further into hills.
I've driven there twice (with a car and with a bike), both times it was on Saturday around 15th August - the main traffic peak.
Sparse traffic, narrow road but in case of clogged roads nice and really picturesque. It is mostly used for Italy-Croatia transit traffic in those busy weekends and it is also closed in the night.
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Old April 14th, 2017, 08:13 PM   #15231
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Podgorje/Jelovice border crossing is not on the fantastic main road Rijeka-Trieste.
But the route through Mune, Vodice, Jelovice, Podgorje.... is the shortest route between Ri and TS.

Rakitovec is not availible for non-locals, but I know this road very very well from the times before the "schengen-slovenian iron curtain" because it's leading towards my nonna's (grandmother's) village. :-)
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Old April 14th, 2017, 08:55 PM   #15232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Rakitovec is a bordercrossing only for locals. Nonlocals have to turn around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kvarner-1 View Post
Rakitovec is not availible for non-locals
Not true, border crossings for locals-only don't exist on the SLO–HR border any more. "Local" border crossings are restricted "only" to citizens of the EU, EEA and CH. Border crossing Rakitovec works from 6h to 22h.

Quote:
(2) Na mejnih prehodih za obmejni promet je dovoljen prehod državne meje s potnim listom ali osebno izkaznico tudi za osebe, ki imajo pravico do prostega gibanja po pravu Evropske unije.
https://www.uradni-list.si/glasilo-u...iki-sloveniji# (article 4)



Btw, there was again 5 hours of waiting at Obrežje today.
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Old April 14th, 2017, 09:42 PM   #15233
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I didn't know that. That is new thing and very good news. Especially for us cyclists
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Old April 14th, 2017, 10:42 PM   #15234
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It's been like that for two years.
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Old April 15th, 2017, 09:57 AM   #15235
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I didn't know that. Thx for info.
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Old April 16th, 2017, 12:12 PM   #15236
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And... twice border crossin on the E-07 Somport tunnel (as known as 666 border, CNGL will tell you reason)
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.74434...!6m1!1e1?hl=es


Absolutely nothing special. Going to France, a little traffic, not so much.

Back to Spain, saturday night, I overpassed a Spanish plate car 20 km before tunnel and saw few cars in the surroundings. I entered the tunnel and just saw ONE car in the opposite direction (in the more than eight km tunnel).

I saw no police even in Spanish side or French side both days (and there were a lot of in touristic places).

After going to Spain, a lot of traffic until Jaca, maybe because it is the last days for ski and people go there till next ski season.
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Old April 16th, 2017, 12:28 PM   #15237
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An article on EUOBSERVER, about the prolonging of controls on inner Schengen borders

Border controls extended without justification

EU member states must demonstrate a serious threat to public order and internal security to impose temporary border controls.

But government documents suggest member states are broadly allowed to deny people the right of free movement even when their own available statistics suggest that there is no major problem.

Swedish police stopped almost 770,000 people in December alone, only 13 applied for asylum (Photo: EUobserver)

Earlier this year, the European Commission agreed for Austria, Denmark, Germany, Sweden and Norway to impose border controls for three months following ministerial letters to justify the blockades.

EUobserver has obtained letters from each of the member states, where they explain their reasons for upholding the border controls. Some admit there is no problem, while others offer scant data to support their arguments.

The commission has been pressing the states to phase out the controls without much success. The goal was to lift them all by the end of 2016.

Instead, the commission appears to be granting extensions despite the loose reasons provided to justify them.

In late January, EU commissioner for home affairs Dimitris Avramopoulos recommended the extra controls given the "unprecedented migratory pressure that Europe is facing".

But Norway said no one was refused entry and nobody had claimed asylum after having screened 157,000 people between December and early January this year at ferry connections with Denmark, Germany, and Sweden.

Norway's ministry of justice told the EU commission in early January that "no one has been refused entry following the border controls in this period."

It also noted that not a single person had applied for asylum, suggesting that the fear of so-called secondary movements of migrants venturing north through other EU states to Norway was no longer a "threat to public order and internal security".

The move poses larger questions on what then justifies the commission's recommendation only weeks later for Norway to uphold the controls.

Asked by EUobserver to comment, the commission has yet to respond.
Travelling asylum seekers

Asylum seekers and refugees travelling from Greece were among the initial reasons as to why border controls were first launched in 2015.

People arriving in Greece at that time would venture through the Western Balkans before reaching other EU member states in the hope of refuge.

The large numbers triggered panic among capitals as the commission scrambled to guarantee the future of the borderless Schengen area, comprised of 26 participating states.

Schengen is viewed as a major achievement of the European Union in terms of integration and the evolving single market.

Last year, the commission warned up to €18 billion annually could be lost if full border controls were to be re-established.

The commission says that any controls must be "necessary and proportionate."

But it is unclear how Norway's rationale for extending the border checks fits into the commission's definition of "necessary and proportionate," given the lack of evidence of any threat.
Austria, Denmark, Germany, Sweden

A similar lack of reasoning for prolonging the controls is also found in the letters sent by Austria, Denmark, Germany, and Sweden.

Austria was permitted to justify its demands despite noting that it cannot provide the EU commission with any of its own data.

"As in the previous notification, we cannot unfortunately give you data on the number of crossings and the number of persons controlled."

Instead, it broadly justifies the border controls by saying there is a steady rise in criminal suspects who also happen to have asylum status.

It also argues that the country has had to handle over 42,000 asylum applications last year alone and that Germany had either sent back or stopped over 13,000 people at the border with Austria over the same period.

More and more people also appear to be hopping onto freight trains to avoid detection in an effort to cross from Italy, Austria and into Germany.

"Over the last couple of weeks we've seen a diversion of flows away from Hungary to the Austrian-Slovakian border," notes the letter.

Denmark's government said it too wants to keep the controls despite the low number of irregular migrants arriving into the country.

Danish police had stopped around 215,500 people at its border with Germany between December and early January this year. Over 200 were told to go back and 147 applied for asylum.

"Although the number of irregular arrivals to Denmark has decreased, there are, at this stage, no grounds for phasing out or scaling down the border controls against Germany," notes the Danish letter.

Germany argued that controls need to continue because of internal security issues and that smugglers are adopting methods to evade the police.

Germany had been checking well over 100,000 every month between May and November last year.

But in December, it checked only around 14,000 after a Berlin Christmas lorry attack, which ended the lives of 12 people and left dozens injured. The suspect ended up taking a train to Italy where he was shot dead in Milan a few days later.

Sweden argues that its social and public services remain overstretched given the migration inflows from 2015.

Swedish police stopped almost 770,000 people in December alone. Police issued 231 removal decisions over the same period, while only 13 people applied for asylum.

"There are still no clear statistics available regarding delays for the general public and the commercial flow," noted the Swedish justice ministry.
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Old April 16th, 2017, 10:20 PM   #15238
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Today I crossed the SLO-HR border (although we only went to Umag, as we reserved a restaurant there and had no a lot of time).
On SLO-HR direction, at Dragonja, around 11 a.m., there was half an hour of queue. They checked all documents on the SLO side, but there was nobody on HR side.
On HR-SLO direction, at Sečovlje, around 5 p.m., there was around 10 minutes of queue. On HR side, they barely looked at IDs, on the SLO side they were doing real controls. Passengers of a bus in SLO-HR direction were forced to get out of the bus.
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Old April 17th, 2017, 12:23 AM   #15239
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They checked all documents on the SLO side, but there was nobody on HR side.
That's because they are both in the Slovenian building.
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Old April 17th, 2017, 03:20 PM   #15240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Today I crossed the SLO-HR border (although we only went to Umag, as we reserved a restaurant there and had no a lot of time).
On SLO-HR direction, at Dragonja, around 11 a.m., there was half an hour of queue. They checked all documents on the SLO side, but there was nobody on HR side.
On HR-SLO direction, at Sečovlje, around 5 p.m., there was around 10 minutes of queue. On HR side, they barely looked at IDs, on the SLO side they were doing real controls. Passengers of a bus in SLO-HR direction were forced to get out of the bus.
And Croatia pays a rent for using the Slovenian border buildings. But it's nothing new, prior 2008 it was the same on Austrian and Italian border, with Slovenian policemans on Austrian and Italian side.

Croatian police is in their border posts only where border is not yet determined (Sečovlje).
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