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Old May 29th, 2017, 11:43 PM   #15381
SRC_100
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When I`m in Makedonija I always used to speak serbian and everybody understand me very well, on the other hand it`s hard for me to understand makedonski.
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Old May 30th, 2017, 05:52 PM   #15382
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When you are in Andorra... it is messy-blessy.... near France, more pannels in French, rest, most of them even in Catalan or Spanish. Everything official would be in Catalan (official in the boundary region) but everyone will speak Spanish. If an officer notices your plate is French or Spanish will speak to you in your language.

In addition, Andorran educational system offers French as foreing language but do not offer Spanish.... and they speak better than some Spaniards even if never learnt about grammar or literacy.
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Old May 31st, 2017, 02:22 AM   #15383
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The mutual intelligibility of the languages is also a weird thing.

As I wrote, in Poland, we practically use the same language everywhere, with very minor differences. There are some regions, where they cultivate their traditions more, like Silesia, and they... truly speaking, I don't know, I haven't lived there - but it's known that they have their own dialect (with many loan words from German), and maybe even some people use it for normal conversations. I think, rather those uneducated ones.

But anyway... I live in central Poland. And when I go to Slovakia or Czech Republic, I have difficulty understanding them. I will understand more or less the written text, but when they talk to me... it's problematic. I wouldn't say Polish is mutually intelligible with any other Slavic language, maybe with an exception of Sorbian to some extent (a Slavic language spoken by a small ethnic group in Germany - by the way, little people in Poland know that such a language and such an ethnic group exists at all).

But in the areas nearer to the border, they usually have much less difficulty understanding Czech or Slovak... Even though they normally speak the same Polish as us in the central Poland. I don't know, maybe it's a matter of frequent international contact, or of the access to the Czech or Slovak TV... Although I have heard that in the communist times, the Polish TV was the most liberal one in the whole Eastern Block, showing comparatively many movies from the West and many entertainment programs, as compared with the TVs from the other countries; so that it would be rather Czechs and Slovaks interested in watching the Polish TV and not the Poles watching the Czechoslovak TV. Even when I see recordings of the news from the 80s (although it's the 80s, so the last years of the communism, it was probably different and containing more propaganda before), they seem to be of higher quality and contain less propaganda then the current main news of our state TV.

I hope it's OK to talk about trans-border TV reception in this thread, when it's basically about state borders

Anyway, now we have satellite TV, not to mention the Internet. Before all this appeared, only those who lived near the border, could pick up some additional TV channels. Especially in the Eastern Block, where there was no private TV stations. We had only two channels of the state TV, the second of which started somewhere around the 70s, from what I know. And they did broadcast only in the afternoons and evenings. In some areas (Warsaw, if I am not wrong), also Russian TV was transmitted. And later, but already in the 90s, where we were already a democratic country - which is interesting - the Italian TV. Rai Uno had a transmitter in Poland

And most lucky were those living near the border with western countries, so that they could receive TV from there. Most lucky of those most lucky - those in East Germany living near the western border or near Berlin. They could even receive western TV in their own language. Others, wanting to get access to western media, were limited to the radio, in case of which you can receive signal on very large distances on ranges like SW, LW or MW (who still uses them now?). Which was often jammed by the government with transmitters dedicated for that, which were transmitting noise or some random content on the frequencies of western stations.
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Old May 31st, 2017, 02:30 AM   #15384
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I wonder how much of the Polish language "homogenity" is because of the population displacements in 1945? You had a lot of "eastern" people moving to extreme west and so on.

I still remember to say "autobana" in Silesia
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Old May 31st, 2017, 02:45 AM   #15385
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You had a lot of "eastern" people moving to extreme west and so on.
Maybe. Although they were moved from more or less a uniform area, so in theory they should move there together with their dialect
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Old May 31st, 2017, 02:30 PM   #15386
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I've found some more pictures of the Estonian-Latvia border in 1991 if anyone is interested:



image hosted on flickr


This next one is from 1993. I'm not sure if this was before the agreement to establish joint border crossings - it looks to me like this is only of the Latvian side of the border.

image hosted on flickr


This is the new "economic border crossing" at Koidula in 1990.



And from the new border in Valka/Valga looking into Estonia from Latvia in 1992.

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Old May 31st, 2017, 03:46 PM   #15387
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@Kpc21 it was the same in SFR Yugoslavia. The national minorities had to adapt to Croatian and/or Serbian, because the so called joint language was used as a mother tongue by far of the most of the population. And as such it was taught in schools, although there were other two constituent languages (SLO and MK) which were taught only in the respective two federal republics.
Back in those days there were also two national TV channels and radio. In MK there was a national republican TV that transmitted on local and also there was a joint channel that transmitted on "SerboCroatian".
And because I am generally fluent in Croatian and Serbian I could easily pickup the accent and pronounciation and I can tell the origin of the accent. Croats pronounce very differently, while Bosnian accent is for sure quite noticeable.
Even today I regularly watch movies and sport on the national Croatian TV and occasionally some Serbian TV stations.

As for my local, out of the capital the language sounds very "uneducated" but thats normal because the official version is always the best version its like you are getting used to it, so when you hear different dialects its getting very awkward and very funny.
In the east the pronunciation is very close to standard Bulgarian.
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Old May 31st, 2017, 03:53 PM   #15388
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What was the status of Albanian language in Kosovo autonomous province (that was part of SR Serbia) during SFR Yugoslavia? Were locals allowed to use it in school, institutions, media, or thay were forced to learn and use Serbian (then officially called Serbo-Croatian)?
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Old May 31st, 2017, 05:09 PM   #15389
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No it was not official. They had their own assembly but it was not federal assembly. They maintained their language in the schools and at home, but in the constitution it was not recognized as a minority language. There were actually three constitutional languages as I said before.
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

BEEN IN:
MK A AL B BiH BG HR CZ EST F FIN D GR H I LT MNE NL SRB SK SLO E TR PL RKS
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Old May 31st, 2017, 06:17 PM   #15390
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USA-Mexico 2017

February 17, 2017. (AFP / Guillermo Arias)












https://www.usnews.com/news/the-repo...-mexico-border
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Old May 31st, 2017, 06:22 PM   #15391
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USA-Mexico 2017



Photo by: Christian Torres
Hundreds of persons line up meet friends and relatives on the U.S. - Mexico border on the Rio Grande in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, Saturday, Jan 28, 2017. Hundreds of people from Ciudad Juarez gathered along the U.S.-Mexico border to reunite with relatives from El Paso, Texas, for a few precious minutes. (AP Photo/Christian Torres)



http://www.washingtontimes.com/multi...8jpg-7305fjpg/
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Old May 31st, 2017, 06:38 PM   #15392
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Mexico/Belize



https://sturgischick.wordpress.com/2...o-into-belize/
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Old May 31st, 2017, 07:14 PM   #15393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
...
There were actually three constitutional languages as I said before.
Wrong. Very wrong. There were actually four. The official language of the Socialist Republic of Croatia was "Croatoserbian", usually called or written in official documents as "Croatian or Serbian", at the end of eighties as "Croatian literary language" (hr: hrvatski književni jezik).

The term "Croatoserbian" (invented in 1922), as his derivative "Croatian or Serbian" were invented with primary purpose to maintain the difference between the four constitutional languages of former, late federation. It is usual that the people from two other former official languages (Slovenian or Macedonian) think that there were only three, because in the old times they learned Serbocroatian only. However, one may see that the Slovene Matjaž Kek, the coach of this year Croatian football champion "Rijeka" learned to speak Croatian instead of Serbocroatian, which he was compelled to learn in school, being born in 1961.

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Old May 31st, 2017, 07:44 PM   #15394
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This is all incorrect.

SFR Yugoslavia had official languages defined as "languages of nations" and "languages of nationalities (meaning national minorities)". So no Croatian or Serbian or Serbocroatian or Macedonian or Slovenian or any other names were used in the constitution of SFRY. The republics had their own constitutions and they could name the official language(s) differently if they wished (and some of them did so).

All "languages of nations" and both scripts were official in Yugoslav national army too, but in practice, Serbian (or eastern variant of Serbocroatian) with latin script was commonly used.

All laws had to be published in all languages of nations together with Hungarian and Albanian. As for Albanian it was very widely used in Kosovo during that period.
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Old May 31st, 2017, 08:43 PM   #15395
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Quote:
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Wrong. Very wrong. There were actually four. The official language of the Socialist Republic of Croatia was "Croatoserbian", usually called or written in official documents as "Croatian or Serbian", at the end of eighties as "Croatian literary language" (hr: hrvatski književni jezik).

The term "Croatoserbian" (invented in 1922), as his derivative "Croatian or Serbian" were invented with primary purpose to maintain the difference between the four constitutional languages of former, late federation. It is usual that the people from two other former official languages (Slovenian or Macedonian) think that there were only three, because in the old times they learned Serbocroatian only. However, one may see that the Slovene Matjaž Kek, the coach of this year Croatian football champion "Rijeka" learned to speak Croatian instead of Serbocroatian, which he was compelled to learn in school, being born in 1961.
You made the point about the joint language that actually never existed. It was a political or ideological term although linguistically it can be considered as one. In theory that second form referred to the "same" language". And in practice it was considered as one so there were three constitutional languages.
And I personally find them to be separated because a lot of (west) dialects has little to do with Štokavian.
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

BEEN IN:
MK A AL B BiH BG HR CZ EST F FIN D GR H I LT MNE NL SRB SK SLO E TR PL RKS
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Old May 31st, 2017, 09:16 PM   #15396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
What was the status of Albanian language in Kosovo autonomous province (that was part of SR Serbia) during SFR Yugoslavia? Were locals allowed to use it in school, institutions, media, or thay were forced to learn and use Serbian (then officially called Serbo-Croatian)?
Yes, everything was bilingual, there were schools, TV station, personal documents, institutions, postal stamps, everything in Albanian and Serbo-Croatian, in some cases even Albanian was in first place. Serbs also learned Albanian at school.

Here you can see old identity card in SAP Kosovo version, Albanian language is in the first place (Republika Socialiste Federative e Jugosllavise), even that person is a Serb:

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Old May 31st, 2017, 09:48 PM   #15397
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SFRY had census in 1981, Kosovo autonomous province had 77% Albanians and 13% Serbs out of 1.600.000 inhabitants. But let's don't go into off-topic here.
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

BEEN IN:
MK A AL B BiH BG HR CZ EST F FIN D GR H I LT MNE NL SRB SK SLO E TR PL RKS
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Old May 31st, 2017, 10:22 PM   #15398
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Quote:
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And in practice it was considered as one so there were three constitutional languages.
Can you, please, cite the part of Yugoslav constitution from 1974 in which it was written that there are three "constitutional languages"?

You simply cannot do that, because that was not the case.
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Old May 31st, 2017, 11:22 PM   #15399
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This is all incorrect.

SFR Yugoslavia had official languages defined as "languages of nations" and "languages of nationalities (meaning national minorities)". So no Croatian or Serbian or Serbocroatian or Macedonian or Slovenian or any other names were used in the constitution of SFRY. The republics had their own constitutions and they could name the official language(s) differently if they wished (and some of them did so).

All "languages of nations" and both scripts were official in Yugoslav national army too, but in practice, Serbian (or eastern variant of Serbocroatian) with latin script was commonly used.

All laws had to be published in all languages of nations together with Hungarian and Albanian. As for Albanian it was very widely used in Kosovo during that period.
First of all "Serbocroatian" was mandatory in all republics and it was practiced in schools.
Its wrong what you say since the Latin script was not that commonly used, we all know that Croats and Slovenes practiced Cyrillic script. It was again mandatory.
You say the republics had their own constitutions, but they were federal republics and were referring to the national federal constitution. We all know that in 4 out of those 6 republics, "Serbocroatian" was official language so it leave the other 2 republics with their own language. So that makes three official languages. I am noting that the autonomous provinces were not republics so Albanian and Hungarian were by no means official languages.
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

BEEN IN:
MK A AL B BiH BG HR CZ EST F FIN D GR H I LT MNE NL SRB SK SLO E TR PL RKS
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Old June 1st, 2017, 12:23 AM   #15400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
First of all "Serbocroatian" was mandatory in all republics and it was practiced in schools.
Its wrong what you say since the Latin script was not that commonly used, we all know that Croats and Slovenes practiced Cyrillic script. It was again mandatory.
You say the republics had their own constitutions, but they were federal republics and were referring to the national federal constitution. We all know that in 4 out of those 6 republics, "Serbocroatian" was official language so it leave the other 2 republics with their own language. So that makes three official languages. I am noting that the autonomous provinces were not republics so Albanian and Hungarian were by no means official languages.
You really have no idea what you're talking about. But it's understandable, you aren't native speaker of Croatian or Serbian. Although, you dare to lecture all of us of languages in which you are not a native speaker. How would you feel if I dare to start here with similarities between Bulgarian and Macedonian?

Others:
Late Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia issued two official gazettes. The first one was the regular, non-secret "Official gazette" (Hr: Službeni list SFRJ, Sr: Службени лист СФРЈ) in which were laws and regulations written consecutive in, one name it Croatoserbian, with Latin script and Croatian redaction, although there were as many Serbian and Bosnian words as possible, and Serbocroatian, with Cyrillic script and Serbian redaction, one may say in plain Serbian.
The second one was the secret "Official gazette", in Serbian (Serbocroatian) in Cyrillic script, issued mainly for the Yugoslav People's Army and its affairs, although in this one the government had announced so-called unpopular measures or regulations, e.g. the introduction of even-odd system of register plates in 1979, regarding to reduction of driving due to the shortage of oil. Common, Comrade Tito was still alive!
Finally, the so-called Yugoslav People's Army had it's own set of rules: Serbocroatian, or Serbian in Latin script. I didn't guess why, was it a whim of Communist government or for some reason they needed all secret or semi-secret military correspondence to be held in Latin script?
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