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Old June 22nd, 2017, 12:38 AM   #15461
alserrod
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Today there are some border issues that remain about that enclave. For instance, no ship coming from another Spanish harbour is allowed to depart there.

There's no problem indeed when there is no sea traffic between Gibraltar and any other corner of Spain. Should you wanna move, railway in the surroundings, motorway or whatever... but they do not import goods from Spain by ship.

But... some years ago (and in the middle of a strong border control), a common navy operation with British and Spanish ships required a call at Moron (NATO base) and later, a British ship would arrive Gibraltar for another issue.

Due to this nicetie (Moron is a NATO navy base but remains in Spain), ship had to made a call in "nowhere" for a night and arrive Gibraltar next day.

Crazy but real. Not often... but happens.
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Old June 22nd, 2017, 12:15 PM   #15462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Today there are some border issues that remain about that enclave. For instance, no ship coming from another Spanish harbour is allowed to depart there.

There's no problem indeed when there is no sea traffic between Gibraltar and any other corner of Spain. Should you wanna move, railway in the surroundings, motorway or whatever... but they do not import goods from Spain by ship.

But... some years ago (and in the middle of a strong border control), a common navy operation with British and Spanish ships required a call at Moron (NATO base) and later, a British ship would arrive Gibraltar for another issue.

Due to this nicetie (Moron is a NATO navy base but remains in Spain), ship had to made a call in "nowhere" for a night and arrive Gibraltar next day.

Crazy but real. Not often... but happens.
That's really strange, considering that both sides are part of EU (although not of Schengen). Things will become even more complicate after Brexit, probably.

How Gibraltar is displayed on Spanish maps? Is it shown as being part of Spain, or separated by a proper international border?
Does Spain recognize that border as an international border or it's called something like "administrative boundary", like the Serbia-Kosovo border from the Serbian poin of view?
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old June 22nd, 2017, 01:20 PM   #15463
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It is shown as a separated side with a border and custom point (it is the narrowest border in the world with customs to be crossed by car, indeed).

There is a neutral area that has been occupied by Gibraltar (airport, stadium and few things more) but barely you will find accurate maps with that area. They just point that there is a border and that's old.


There are no odd maps or so.
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Old June 22nd, 2017, 01:26 PM   #15464
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In addition


Michelin map

[img]https://map.viamichelin.com/map/carte?map=viamichelin&z=10&lat=36.16129&lon=-5.3483&width=550&height=382&format=png&version=latest&layer=background&debug_pattern=.*[/img]


Official traffic administration web (traffic on-line situation)
http://infocar.dgt.es/etraffic/

Just look for Gibraltar area (additionally, you will see Ceuta borders but not Melilla ones. I guess it is because they manage traffic and there are no national roads there)


You can find more info in that web. Just click on any camera gif icon and will see on-line traffic in that point.

(and it can be downloaded by an app, quite useful if someone is to cross Spain)
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Old June 22nd, 2017, 03:35 PM   #15465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
It is shown as a separated side with a border and custom point (it is the narrowest border in the world with customs to be crossed by car, indeed).
As I recall, it has quite an ambiguous situation. Spain treats it as an external Schengen crossing, but at the same time, it's described as a "fence" and not a "frontier" in some documents.

There's a very good example of this ambiguity here - https://www.google.pl/maps/@36.15608...7i13312!8i6656 - the speed limits sign is without the country code.

Quote:
There is a neutral area that has been occupied by Gibraltar (airport, stadium and few things more) but barely you will find accurate maps with that area. They just point that there is a border and that's old.
I think Spain has given up on the neutral zone issue, as the border infrastructure and car parks have been built on the Spanish side. It wasn't always the case - I think before the closure in 1969, there was only a small guard post on the neutral zone.

Speaking of this border, it seems that this will be the only EU external border where systematic border controls won't take place.
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Old June 22nd, 2017, 05:54 PM   #15466
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Hi

Have searched about that a Little more
In the 19th, neutral area was respected. After a disease it was requested to use neutral area and nothing happened. Several years later, second disease, area used, built a fence and neutral area annexed to Gibraltar mainland (nowadays airport, stadium and few things more)
Signal is weird at all but turning back on image there is the Tax agency that exists in every border (even harbours or airports too) and says clearly “La Linea de la concepcion Customs). Anyway, after having a custom control I guess everyone will know has crossed a border (it is not the same with Portugal and France where, in the case of Portugal you can cross border and do not know it… in the case of France it is mainly in mountain passes, but not always)
Have googled in Spanish “Gibraltar fence” and “Gibraltar border”. Second one gives, by far, more results.
About border, “fence” was close in the 60ish, opened to people in the early 80ish and traffic some months before entering Spain in the EU.
By law (or tradition, or…), roads going to borders are “national roads”. Therefore, road coming from west (which it is an avenue indeed) is a national road and maintenance is made by central government (if you do not enter in Gibraltar but keep on will be a street maintained by local council).
Local council wanted to set a toll for cars entering in Spain due to it was easy to made everyone going though “streets” instead of national road. It was matter of a couple of metres indeed, made a strong discussion between Minister and local Major and finally a Judge declared illegal to set a toll without any other option.
Nowadays (and Wednesday night Discovery channel has a special program about borders in Spain in this case) main issue is tobacco smuggling. Gibraltar citizens should smoke 39 packs of 20 cigarettes per day… or smuggle to Spain. A lot of them are catched in the border and after seeing how they keep so many tobacco in a car… you understand why every car is checked in entrance (in the other side, entering from Andorra has more problems about money entered and tax fraud and in airports…. They can find anything at all… but mainly it is easier to made controls because they have passengers names and baggages can cross through a scanner).

Should UK finish with Brexit, I guess it will be like Andorra. Few people will worry about passports (for an international flight to London police ask for ID or passport but sometimes I try to guess what would happen if I show any other document… maybe they will not notice, no worried with people going to several countries).
But customs will remain. It is as easy as going to Andorra. No controls through Andorra, neither from French/Spanish police, nor Andorran (once they stopped me and asked reason of visit but only once out of several in the same month). No passport control coming to France/Spain (just look at google maps and will see empty booths without controls) and strong custom checks when entering in EU.

There is another way to enter Gibraltar on foot and not opened by both police: through airport!!!!!
When new terminal was opened, there was a brigde over the border that will allow any Spain-Gibraltar (or any country in Schengen area to Gibraltar) enter in Spain without passport controls. For a while Iberia operated a daily flight Madrid-Gibraltar and citizens in surroundings said it was cool due to time saved… but after HSL railway opened to Malaga (makes Algeciras trains running fast until Antequera) and later crisis, flight went down.
There are no longer flights from Spain (they could be, but not today) but… as a foot border it could be used!!!!!
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Old June 22nd, 2017, 11:22 PM   #15467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Speaking of this border, it seems that this will be the only EU external border where systematic border controls won't take place.
Usually there is no checks for EU - Norway border either.
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Old June 22nd, 2017, 11:50 PM   #15468
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I guess he wanted to say "Schengen area"

Monaco, San Marino, Vatican city, Andorra and so on have no passport control (in the case of Spain-Andorra they exists booths, in the case of France-Andorra, a building focused for goods, in the case of Monaco... you can go through if you travel by train and so on...)
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Old June 23rd, 2017, 05:53 AM   #15469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
ts.
There's a very good example of this ambiguity here - https://www.google.pl/maps/@36.15608...7i13312!8i6656 - the speed limits sign is without the country code.
That's not uncommon. Actually, the sign for listing the speed limits in Spain has no country code on it like in other countries accross Europe:


Sign S-940

It is true that the sign with the EU stars and the name of the country is missing in La Línea-Gibraltar border as far as I know, but I would say that it is missing as well in many borders, so, not completely weird.
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Old June 23rd, 2017, 08:20 AM   #15470
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In a lot of F-E borders, only department/region sign is pointed, indeed.
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Old June 23rd, 2017, 09:42 AM   #15471
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I took a photo of the speed limit sign at the Somport Pass (France & Spain border).


Spain speed limit sign by European Roads, on Flickr
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Old June 25th, 2017, 02:43 PM   #15472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
There is another way to enter Gibraltar on foot and not opened by both police: through airport!!!!!
When new terminal was opened, there was a brigde over the border that will allow any Spain-Gibraltar (or any country in Schengen area to Gibraltar) enter in Spain without passport controls.

There are no longer flights from Spain (they could be, but not today) butÂ… as a foot border it could be used!!!!!
No, it didn't actually happen. If you look on Street View, you can see how the terminal looks unfinished at the border fence - Spain was supposed to build some infrastructure on the Spanish side of the fence which would allow travellers from La Linea to be treated as 'domestic' on Gibraltar-Madrid flights.

It's difficult to explain, but the idea is that people could enter/exit directly to Spain while also clearing Schengen controls inside the terminal if they were coming from/going to Gibraltar on flights to the Schengen area. What made it such an unique idea was that the Spanish controls were to be physically located on the north side of the fence/frontier.

But...the infrastructure was never built. It should have been here, but it seems that the numbers flying to Madrid were so low that it was impossible to justify.

The ideal situation for Gibraltar is to join Schengen, but whether Spain would agree to that is another question. There's already passport controls between Gibraltar and the UK, so there's no reason why Gibraltar can't join.
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Old June 25th, 2017, 03:37 PM   #15473
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I disagree... for two or three years a daily Madrid-Gibraltar operated by Iberia (today Iberia and British airways are the same company indeed!!!!) arrived there.

Due to crisis and less time on train (twice per day, sometimes three times and stations quite near than airport and cheaper fares), it was gone and never returned.

In the same treatment, not only airport terminal was built but several issues included at the same time. For instance, better telephone connection. Even if it is considered an international call, all lines come from Spain and it depends to have more phone numbers (until several decades ago, even if fence down... a call coming from Cadiz province has province fare and coming from La Linea, local call)
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Old June 25th, 2017, 08:58 PM   #15474
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I know most of you are already familiar with the three-country point NED/BE/D, but I'd like nevertheless to share some pictures I have made yesterday at that place.
First, the German-Netherlands border at Aachen (D)-Vaals (NL). As you can see, there is basically a single city on both sides of the "border" and only the signs (and the Vaals Grenze bus stop) are there to remind travellers that they are crossing in another country. There is even a "Vaalser" neighbourhood in Aachen:




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Old June 25th, 2017, 09:02 PM   #15475
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Former customs & border police booth?



Com'on Dutch people! Is there so much shame in being part of the EU that you need to hide it from the public?



Now about the three-country point itself. There are some scarce signs towards it, but I was expecting better directions. The street is called Viergrenzenweg ("Four borders street" in Dutch). Why four borders? Because for about 100 years, that place was the point where four borders met, during the existence of Neutral Moresnet:



Here's the three-country point with the border lines drawn at its base: front-left is The Netherlands, front-right Belgium and behind the landmark is Germany:



It was also a discreet Moresnet presence there, in the form of a "Free Moresnet - The country within us" sticker:



This is also the highest place in The Netherlands, 322,5 m :

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Last edited by nenea_hartia; June 25th, 2017 at 09:12 PM.
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Old June 25th, 2017, 09:05 PM   #15476
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Then I climbed the panoramic tower:




The views are spectacular but I'm not going to post pictures of the scenery here, since this is not the appropriate thread. Instead, just three on-topic pics:





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Old June 25th, 2017, 09:39 PM   #15477
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Quote:
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The street is called Viergrenzenweg ("Four borders street" in Dutch).
In German.

Maybe it's the same in Dutch, I don't know.
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Old June 25th, 2017, 09:45 PM   #15478
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^ It's the same in Dutch and I was technically in the Netherlands.
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Old June 25th, 2017, 10:18 PM   #15479
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Well to know. I have checked that this street is in Netherlands and it was a bit weird (although understandable so close to the border) that it has a German name. But the idea that it may mean the same in both languages also came to my mind.
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Old June 25th, 2017, 10:28 PM   #15480
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Grenzen is plural - the same in Dutch and German. But in singular there is a difference: grens in Dutch and Grenze in German. I believe the Polish word granica has the same origin.
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