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Old August 23rd, 2017, 11:28 PM   #15701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
How do you come to this conclusion? The border at Kula is a normal boder crossing point and the border in Rugova canyon is closed. There is no border crossing checkpoint in Montenegro also.

This bicycle driver just encountered a random border police patrol.
Yes you are right, but that was my point, Montenegro recognizes Kosovo and the border is demarcated but there is only one checkpoint or actually only one side is actively and legally controlling which is not according to the international rules.
And on the other pass there is no control booths at all, the road has been blocked with barriers.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 12:32 AM   #15702
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
During the Cold War was it possible to cross the border between USSR and Finland or Norway?

I've seen this photo of the USSR-Norway border, but it looks like closed
Found an article that might clear some up, it says the first crossing opened for regular traffic in late 50s, number of crossings per year was about 300-400 in the 60s.

Also:
1988. 2500 crossings
1991: 16000 crossings

https://www.nrk.no/finnmark/xl/dette...and-1.12657844

Also interesting, for 59 days in 1965 there was a visa free zone (Boris Gleb) for norwegians just across the border with a Russian bar.

http://sva.no/reportasjer/59-dager-u...s-gleb/19.6162'

For some photos:

Skafferhullet checkpoint 1965:


http://scanpix.no/spWebApp/gallery.a...?view=&id=2053
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Last edited by Ingenioren; August 24th, 2017 at 12:43 AM.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 12:38 AM   #15703
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
The SLO-HR border crossing at Sekovlje lies on the disputes sections of the border (Slovenia claims a narrow strip of land into Croatia). The border crossing functions normally, although on Slovenian documents is referred as "control checkpoint" (or something like that) and not "border crossing", as according to Slovenia it lies entirely inside Slovenia.
There are two border checkpoints (as usually). The Slovenian one is called 'Sečovlje', while the Croatian one is called 'Plovanija' (which is the one on the disputed land (although the arbitration gave it to Croatia)). The Slovenian border checkpoint Sečovlje is called "control point", which I find stupid, because you eventually cross the border anyway (and border checkpoints don't lie exactly on the border).
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Old August 24th, 2017, 12:54 AM   #15704
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
So, apartently, even without an official border crossing they let people through? It may be the only border crossing in Europe like that.
And remember the case of Os de Civis, which it is a periclave... you can arrive by helicopter or... crossing twice a non-Schengen border where in second cross, until some years ago there were no signals about where the border was!!!!

Os de Civis citizens have no problems to cross the country (indeed... barely passport control) and emergencies are duty free with preference... but no police is allowed. They have to go by helicopter.

Should they buy anything tax-free... they can consume it without paying taxes (it is cheaper let 100 people do that rather than asking for invoices) but should they go to mainland they have to declare in main customs when second cross



Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
During the Cold War was it possible to cross the border between USSR and Finland or Norway?

I've seen this photo of the USSR-Norway border, but it looks like closed



Interestingly, it was the only border between USSR and a NATO country.
EDIT: there was also the USSR-Turkey border.

Have searched and... AFAIK, USSR and Spain opened ambassies in 1972 and in 1978 there was first direct flight.
I have seen a documentary set on 1979 where they talked about Moscow life and city and it could be first time anything related to that country wasn't bad in Spain.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 01:06 AM   #15705
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Sweden now has this very strange sign where the speed limits used to be listed:

2017-08-09_09-19-36 by André Wauthier, on Flickr

Norway - Sweden (Vassbotten)

2017-08-09_09-18-50 by André Wauthier, on Flickr
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Old August 24th, 2017, 02:48 AM   #15706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
There are also ongoing controversies about SLO-HR, HR-BIH and HR-SRB borders. Administrative borders of Yugoslavia were never properly established and no accurate maps from before 1991 exist. It wasn't much a problem back then (they were just administrative borders and the regime didn't want to stress their existence, as it promoted "pan-Yugoslavism" and opposed local nationalisms). Of course the problem became real after those countries declared their independence.

The SLO-HR border crossing at Sekovlje lies on the disputes sections of the border (Slovenia claims a narrow strip of land into Croatia). The border crossing functions normally, although on Slovenian documents is referred as "control checkpoint" (or something like that) and not "border crossing", as according to Slovenia it lies entirely inside Slovenia.
Funny how all of them have HR in common
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Old August 24th, 2017, 02:58 AM   #15707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
There are also ongoing controversies about SLO-HR, HR-BIH and HR-SRB borders. Administrative borders of Yugoslavia were never properly established and no accurate maps from before 1991 exist. It wasn't much a problem back then (they were just administrative borders and the regime didn't want to stress their existence, as it promoted "pan-Yugoslavism" and opposed local nationalisms). Of course the problem became real after those countries declared their independence.

The SLO-HR border crossing at Sekovlje lies on the disputes sections of the border (Slovenia claims a narrow strip of land into Croatia). The border crossing functions normally, although on Slovenian documents is referred as "control checkpoint" (or something like that) and not "border crossing", as according to Slovenia it lies entirely inside Slovenia.
These are all examples where land areas was registered in the wrong land registry. You know very well to wich republic these disputed areas belonged to, just the official registration was wrong. This is why they are fighting for these areas. But that is not much, some few square meters actually.

Beside of that the area of the republics were well known and documented. The borders were just not marked, but everybody knew where the border was.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 03:07 AM   #15708
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Yes you are right, but that was my point, Montenegro recognizes Kosovo and the border is demarcated but there is only one checkpoint or actually only one side is actively and legally controlling which is not according to the international rules.
How do you come to this conclusion? Kula is a normal border crossing with two checkpoints, one of Montenegro and one of Kosovo. The only odd thing is that these control points are parted by quite some distance. But beside of that, it's a pretty normal border crossing point with normal border checks on both sides.

Quote:
And on the other pass there is no control booths at all, the road has been blocked with barriers.
That was made back in 1999, most likely by KFOR troops (could also be Montenegrin work, I am not sure about it). Since then the border was not opened because Kosovo was claiming some land there since Kosovarian shepherds have the right of pasture on Montenegrin land. Silly stuff at all and they finally settled it with Kosovo finally recognizing the actual border line. But this agreement is not finalized yet and because of that Kosovo does not want to open the border there.

The border is not on top of the pass (Cakor). The border is down in the valley at the beginning of Rugova canyon. In Montenegro you are free to travel up to Cakor and even down to the border.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 10:07 AM   #15709
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Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
Found an article that might clear some up, it says the first crossing opened for regular traffic in late 50s, number of crossings per year was about 300-400 in the 60s.
Do you mean, approx. 1 car daily in average?
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Old August 24th, 2017, 11:48 AM   #15710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
How do you come to this conclusion? Kula is a normal border crossing with two checkpoints, one of Montenegro and one of Kosovo. The only odd thing is that these control points are parted by quite some distance. But beside of that, it's a pretty normal border crossing point with normal border checks on both sides.
The Canadian checkpoint on the Alaska Highway is almost 30 km before the actual border with the US state of Alaska. Of course that's possible because there isn't anything in between. One doesn't have to go near the border unless he wants to cross it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcan_...order_Crossing
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 11:50 AM   #15711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Do you mean, approx. 1 car daily in average?
No 2-3 hours queues, like today on that border!
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 04:18 PM   #15712
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Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Do you mean, approx. 1 car daily in average?
No, I think it means 1 person daily in average.

As one car (let alone bus) may carry several persons, for many days that means there was no traffic at all.

The organized tours were mostly for groups. That way they were easier to control.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 05:45 PM   #15713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
How do you come to this conclusion? Kula is a normal border crossing with two checkpoints, one of Montenegro and one of Kosovo. The only odd thing is that these control points are parted by quite some distance. But beside of that, it's a pretty normal border crossing point with normal border checks on both sides.
Most probably it is because it was known that the independence on both sides will happen. Also the line was not demarcated, although as you also said, the republic borders were drawn back since 1945.
But later in SFRY, Kosovo got autonomous borders.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 06:42 PM   #15714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
Most probably it is because it was known that the independence on both sides will happen. Also the line was not demarcated, although as you also said, the republic borders were drawn back since 1945.
But later in SFRY, Kosovo got autonomous borders.
Kosovo was part of Serbia, there was no changing of border line with Montenegro no matter of the constitutional state of Kosovo within Serbia.

So in my opinion that could not be the matter and I think safety reasons (afraid of being shelled by somebody from Kosovo, just by accident) are the most logical reasons.

Maybe they also want to save some money on bringing power, water and stuff there. And the area is high in the mountains - the pass is about 1800 m high and the pass area is obviously very rough and exposed to weather. I mean that is more or less in the middle of nowhere, there is nobody in Montenegro living there near the border.

Edit: Ah, now I think I got it! As far as I know, the street is not kept open in the winter (or at least it was not kept open in the past), so being on top of the pass or even after that would bring the police and customs officers in danger of getting snowed in. Also there is a very steep part after the border crossing point towards the border which could also be a big problem to reach the border crossing point when it's snowing heavy. You must always keep in mind that we are talking about a country with very limited resources and it's not that easy to keep the roads free from snow like in Switzerland. And the road is rather unimportant (just for Montenegro of course).

Last edited by stickedy; August 24th, 2017 at 06:55 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2017, 03:52 PM   #15715
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Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
Kosovo was part of Serbia, there was no changing of border line with Montenegro no matter of the constitutional state of Kosovo within Serbia.

So in my opinion that could not be the matter and I think safety reasons (afraid of being shelled by somebody from Kosovo, just by accident) are the most logical reasons.

Maybe they also want to save some money on bringing power, water and stuff there. And the area is high in the mountains - the pass is about 1800 m high and the pass area is obviously very rough and exposed to weather. I mean that is more or less in the middle of nowhere, there is nobody in Montenegro living there near the border.

Edit: Ah, now I think I got it! As far as I know, the street is not kept open in the winter (or at least it was not kept open in the past), so being on top of the pass or even after that would bring the police and customs officers in danger of getting snowed in. Also there is a very steep part after the border crossing point towards the border which could also be a big problem to reach the border crossing point when it's snowing heavy. You must always keep in mind that we are talking about a country with very limited resources and it's not that easy to keep the roads free from snow like in Switzerland. And the road is rather unimportant (just for Montenegro of course).
Ok, I agree with you, seems that you found the reason for the vast distance between those border checkpoints. It is really unique example or I personally don't know any other example.
But what is more interesting is if the winter conditions and harsh terrain were a reason, then how come both sides did it, maybe they agreed, because in 1999 Kosovo was not independent.
Also I think they should think about the second pass and a road should definitely be build there, because its much shorter route to Montenegro and the terrain is much better the the first pass being mentioned!
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The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
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Old August 28th, 2017, 07:25 PM   #15716
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18 November 1989: opening of the inner German border between Helmstedt (BRD) and Morsleben (DDR), on the present-day B1 road.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...G._Mach%29.jpg
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old August 28th, 2017, 07:42 PM   #15717
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Unpaved road in Germany. Is it (DDR)
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Old August 28th, 2017, 07:46 PM   #15718
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Unpaved road in Germany. Is it (DDR)
That's not surprising, since that road was unused since 1945. There was a border crossing at nearby A2, though.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old August 29th, 2017, 04:14 PM   #15719
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B 305 from Berchtesgaden (D) -> B 160 to Salzburg (A)
Photos from Aug 2017

1.




2. An Austrian stone border marker visible next to the car




3.

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Old August 29th, 2017, 09:28 PM   #15720
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A few lame photos from EST/LV border at Ikla/Ainaži, route E67

View from Estonia to Latvia. There is a queue of cars because there were some road construction works and only one lane was available. The buildings in the background are in Latvia


Border pole viewed from Estonia, old Latvian checkpoint in the background. Now it houses a liquor shop


Border pole viewed from Latvia, old Estonian checkpoint in the background. Now there is a bar and a shop


Welcome to Estonia


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