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Old September 30th, 2017, 09:06 PM   #16021
Corvinus
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In Switzerland, it's decoupled from salary and work (which has the advantage of the premiums not being a percentage of your salary - after all, if you earn 3 times the average, you are not necessarily sick 3 times more ...)

There is a "basic" health insurance package which is mandatory for every resident of the country, and which every insurance company has to offer, without being allowed to ask for health history or deny customers based on that.

Other particularity, in the basic package you bear a minimum of 300 francs per year on your own before refund starts, plus you bear 10% of your medical bills up to a certain limit.
You can select a higher "franchise" of up to 2500 francs per year, in which case your monthly premium is significantly lower. Healthy people often select this highest franchise.

Compared to other European countries I find the Swiss one a fairly satisfactory system.
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Old September 30th, 2017, 09:34 PM   #16022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar1989 View Post
At Germany the health insureance is paid with the salary.
People which get money from the state (like unemployment or retirement), that pays the state.
Same in Poland.

Concerning the children and youth, if they are under 18 or they study, they don't work and they are under 26 - they are insured by the employer of one of the parents. Registered for the insurance - the employer doesn't deduct anything more than usually from the salary for that. But, anyway, even if a child (under 18) is not registered for the health insurance (even though it's obliged to), it is allowed to get free treatment.

The students (the doctoral ones too) above 26 who do not work are registered for the insurance by the university - I am not sure if the university pays anything for that or not.

A few years ago they introduced a computer system, so that when you go to a doctor office, you show your ID, they verify you and they know if you are insured. If the system says you aren't (and you know that you should be), you can sign a paper that you claim you are insured and then you get the free treatment anyway.

Before the electronic system, there were booklets which had to be stamped by the employer every year, or something like this. Later, they withdrew the booklets even though the electronic system was still not ready. Most doctor offices were still accepting the old booklets, still stamped by the employers, but otherwise you had to show an official form from the employer confirming that you are registered, which was a problem because it also showed your salary (it showed how much money from your gross salary was transferred to the social security).

If you are self-employed, if I am not mistaken, you have to pay like for any person you employ. If you are unemployed and registered in the employment office (like Arbeitsamt in German) as a person searching for work, you are registered by them. If you are retired, again I am not sure, but from I know, the money is deducted from your pension (income tax, by the way, too - which is a bit weird: the state gives you money but immediately deducts some part of it).

If you are not employed and not registered as unemployed, you can pay a voluntary monthly fee and be insured.

Then you don't pay for the medical services except for some which are considered "premium", like the mercury-free filling of the back teeth. The services are also sometimes limited in other ways, for example if you need a teeth prosthesis, you can get one not more frequently than once for a few years. If the one you got breaks down before that time, you must pay for the repair or for a new one. They don't finance dental implants, they don't finance dental braces (apart from the removable ones for children under 12).

Concerning the medicines, for some you have to pay the full price, some are partially refunded. For a short time, some are also free of charge for the elderly. Although there are some absurd things here. For example, a person in my family needs to take the Xarelto medicine for heat disease. And it would be free of charge, but only if... he had another disease (vein thrombosis). But for his illness, he must pay, even though this drug is quite expensive and there are problems with its availability. Recently, we found it in only one pharmacy in the town (in which there is 9 of them), for a much higher price than it would be in the other pharmacies if they had it (about 150 PLN instead of about 100 PLN). From what I have read, those problems are because of a weird sales policy of the Bayer company, which has a patent for it - if I remember well, they sell a limited amount of this medicine to the pharmacies for this price, and if they wanted to order more, the price would skyrocket and it would be something like 400 PLN. Which almost nobody could afford anyway.

And - to get closer to the border crossings problem - another issue that sometimes causes problems with availability of drugs in Poland is that they happen to be illegally exported to the western countries, as their prices in Poland are lower.

Apart from the state health insurance, which is not always perfect as I wrote (the biggest problem is the long waiting times to specialists), some employers - usually the multinational corporations - offer also free private health insurance plans as a bonus.

Concerning the dental healthcare in Germany - how extended is it? Does it cover, for example, mercury-free ("white" instead of "silver") filling in rear teeth, prostheses, implants, braces, anesthesia during the dental services?
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Old September 30th, 2017, 09:56 PM   #16023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
The only fact is that public health service will be given to all Spanish within Spain even if not working but not for foreings (they must be working).


For international travels I know that it is enough to have a general sample for the whole EU. They say that you may call in case you need health service and it could depend country and situation to be free or not.
Well. In the EU, if you are insured in the country where you live and work, you have automatically right to the healthcare services in all other EU countries on same rules as the people living and working there.

With a restriction that it cannot be any planned treatment, but only unexpected cases when you get sick or injured. And they won't pay for medical transport to your country.

To confirm your health insurance abroad, you need something called European Health Insurance Card (EHIC, its names in other countries differ, e.g. in Poland it's called EKUZ - Europejska Karta Ubezpieczenia Zdrowotnego):



The time for which they issue it - at least in Poland - depends on your purpose of going abroad (there are different application forms e.g. for those who go abroad touristically or for those who go for a student exchange) and on your health insurance status (e.g. if you are a child, you are working, you are retired, you are unemployed). In the most common case (a working person going abroad touristically) it's issued for a year, although until a few months ago it was only 6 months.

You get it immediately (apart from the long queues in the summer) when you go to the national healthcare office which are located in the main cities, although now you can also order it by email and they will send it by post. I had such a case when I was on a student exchange in Germany. I stayed there longer than it was originally planned (actually, it wasn't known how long I would stay there as the dates of the end-of-term exams where not decided yet), and in case of a student exchange, the card is issued for the period which you are planned to spend there (according to a paper from the university). So I ordered a new one for the remaining time by e-mail (attaching a scan of a paper from the university confirming the extension of the stay) and they sent it to me by post, by a registered letter.
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Old September 30th, 2017, 09:57 PM   #16024
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Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post

And - to get closer to the border crossings problem - another issue that sometimes causes problems with availability of drugs in Poland is that they happen to be illegally exported to the western countries, as their prices in Poland are lower.
So you want to say that there is a black market for these medicines because in the west they are much expensive? Are they from the same manufacterer? And if so what is the difference in price. This is interesting because I think strangers can't use these medicines and they go for black market maybe.
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Old September 30th, 2017, 10:04 PM   #16025
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Yes, it seems there is kind of black market here. But it's rather between pharmacies or medicine wholesalers, I think. I don't know how it looks like on the western side - after all, those medicines have Polish packages and Polish information flyers, so they wouldn't be allowed to be sold in the pharmacies in the western Europe, just because of the language difference... Maybe they repack them to fake packages and print fake leaflets. Or they sell them online on portals like eBay for lower prices (although it would be quite dangerous in case of prescription medicines). I have no idea.

The prices of the medicines made by companies like e.g. Bayer are different for different countries, just because of differences of average salaries and so on. I don't think they export the medicines of Polish manufacturers, which are usually yet cheaper then the western equivalents (for example, we have a few local equivalents of Aspirin made by local companies, which are just the same medicine, with a different name - most popular one is Polopiryna) as they would be much more difficult to sell. Rather the more expensive medicines like the Xarelto I mentioned, which are usually patented by a single western company anyway.

Last edited by Kpc21; September 30th, 2017 at 10:09 PM.
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Old October 1st, 2017, 01:41 PM   #16026
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Aside this interesting talk lets get back on-topic. I don't want to speak politics here BUT:
One thing caught my eye, if Catalonia somehow manage to get independence from Spain seems that Andorra and Spain will not have shared border anymore. I really hope this would not happen, although when speaking about borders, maybe is possible that Catalonia will declare independence and set physical border even with Spain? So controls would start?
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

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Old October 1st, 2017, 04:47 PM   #16027
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If Catalonia put up physical border facilities at a border Spain doesn’t recognize? That could be...interesting.

Whatever they do, I hope they negotiate it. No matter what your opinion of Catalan independence is (and my opinion is that it’s none of my business), I hope we can agree in hoping that whatever happens happens without people getting killed.
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Old October 1st, 2017, 04:56 PM   #16028
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I really know very little about Spain and Catalonia. Although I have been in Spain only once (in Barcelona) actually. Now I don't know whether they will get their independence but I think it will be bad if that happen!

I see some province borders on google maps now...
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5368...7i13312!8i6656
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

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Old October 1st, 2017, 08:16 PM   #16029
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After seeing how they haven't had any poll today but a popcorn day... anything would be related to regional borders...
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Old October 1st, 2017, 10:25 PM   #16030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
If Catalonia put up physical border facilities at a border Spain doesn’t recognize? That could be...interesting.

Whatever they do, I hope they negotiate it. No matter what your opinion of Catalan independence is (and my opinion is that it’s none of my business), I hope we can agree in hoping that whatever happens happens without people getting killed.
I am curious which double standard will be used this time: the Kosovo one or the Crimea one. Or maybe there will be new, Catalonian one.
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Old October 1st, 2017, 11:25 PM   #16031
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Catalonia bounds with France and Andorra in the north (international), Valencian region in the south (not many passes despite some of them strongly used, it is a tiny area) and Aragon, where I live, in the east


For instance, this is motorway Madrid/Bilbao/almostanywhere in Spain-Zaragoza-Barcelona where it enters in Catalonia

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.50557...2!8i6656?hl=es

It doessn't appear but this road shift from Catalonia to Aragon from time to time

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.35917...2!8i6656?hl=es



More in the south.... they do not point Catalonia anywhere (and some years ago it was unpaved in Catalonian side)

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.39318...2!8i6656?hl=es


This little town must enter in Catalonia for railway station, which it is located in the other side of the river

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.22905...2!8i6656?hl=es

This river is well-known to have bath-places in summer. Catalonia in the picture, Aragon ahead. No pannels except one pointing the name of Teruel province at all

https://www.google.es/maps/@40.95056...2!8i6656?hl=es



And the most weird at all!!!

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.15163...!3m1!1e3?hl=es

It is not fake (well.... it is not accurate, bound it is some houses to the right). Four or five houses of that village are inside Catalonia.

From Aragon you can enter main downtown only by pedestrian bridge or by car crossing Catalonia
From Catalonia you can enter to those four houses only in an off-road car or crossing Aragon





But be sure it will remain a regional border, thus I quit this off-topic
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Old October 2nd, 2017, 12:51 AM   #16032
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If Cataluña became indepedent will it automatically stay part of the EU and the Schengen zone? In that case don't see any reason to put border facilities.
Or do they have to go to the entry process from scratch because it technically is a new member?

Last edited by jdb.2; October 2nd, 2017 at 01:01 AM.
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Old October 2nd, 2017, 01:04 AM   #16033
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What I have been reading today, it would be the second.
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

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Old October 2nd, 2017, 01:08 AM   #16034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdb.2 View Post
If Cataluña became indepedent will it automatically stay part of the EU and the Schengen zone? In that case don't see any reason to put border facilities.
Or do they have to go to the entry process from scratch because it technically is a new member?
Schengen... do not know

EU, European commision said clearly: 28 states.... leaving one out of them, leaving EU for ALL deals.


Anyway... tomorrow, be sure no international borders will take place there (and I will bet that nothing in next years or more)
It is offtopic but everybody knows that it is part of a game to ask for more money in the region...
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Old October 2nd, 2017, 01:32 AM   #16035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdb.2 View Post
If Cataluña became indepedent will it automatically stay part of the EU and the Schengen zone? In that case don't see any reason to put border facilities.
Or do they have to go to the entry process from scratch because it technically is a new member?
They automatically leave the EU and NATO. And they are likely to have problems with rejoining because Spain would probably veto them (although rather for political than practical reasons).
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Old October 2nd, 2017, 09:52 AM   #16036
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If Cataluña became indepedent will it automatically stay part of the EU and the Schengen zone?
No. And for political reasons (Spain would veto all the time) they would have very little chances to join EU.
So actually we could have a lot of new on topic facilities. No one has any idea today, how Spain would react to a border which they don't recognize.
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Old October 2nd, 2017, 09:58 AM   #16037
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No. And for political reasons (Spain would veto all the time) they would have very little chances to join EU.
So actually we could have a lot of new on topic facilities. No one has any idea today, how Spain would react to a border which they don't recognize.
Easy... not leaving territories. There are some regions with regional police, almost all towns and cities have local police for local purposes but there is a national police.

In the Spanish constitution several points are set and one out of them is that region can managed almost all in their territory except some points like international controls.

It is enough for police to remain in airports, ports, checking smuggling via airplane or ship and Andorran border, nothing else....
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Old October 2nd, 2017, 11:17 PM   #16038
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But will the local units of the national police be loyal to the Spanish government or rather to the Catalan one? If those policemen live and work there, they would prefer working for Catalonia rather than staying on the Spanish side and defending the Spanish and not their local interests.

Leaving Spain from the Catalan point of view looked just stupid... until yesterday. After Spain did them what it did, the Spanish government will certainly start being disliked very much by many.

Attacking people organizing as well as taking part in (!) a peaceful pseudo-referendum (even if it was organized against the law) is not what you do in a democratic country.

The obvious thing to do was saying: it's OK, you did it, maybe even it's slightly over 50% for independence - but you know it wasn't legal, so there will be no independence (if you try to use military forces to gain it, we will answer). However, even though being a part of Spain has many advantages for Catalonia (here enumerating different examples), we will ensure that Catalonia will benefit even more from being a part of Spain rather than lose. Plus what you say about Catalonia losing by being part of Spain is wrong because... (and here again enumerating).

By doing what they did they just generate more rage and hatred, and just boost the Catalonia's independence ambitions.
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Old October 2nd, 2017, 11:53 PM   #16039
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about border controls.... passport is done by national police, freight is controlled by civil guard, two corps belonging to central government and nobody dubts on their loyalty. But indeed... all inner questions in Catalonia are dealed by regional police which is loyal to regional government.

For instance, in the Barcelona& Cambrils attacks we could see this police more than other just because there are many officers than other police.

Anyway, it is clear, there are a lot of issues to let dealed by regions and some of them that could be never manage them. One out of them is borders (national currency, official time, etc...). There are barely controls (no stops but they may check or control without stopping or so). But controls for non-Schengen area in harbours or airports, Andorran border, Gibraltar border and both Moroccan borders are managed by national police.

In this case, Andorran, airports and harbours.



About politicians... there are other threads but as a sum-up, people reject policy of Catalan president as well as point mistakes of Spanish president. Just briefly....
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Old October 3rd, 2017, 12:12 AM   #16040
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When I visited Barcelona in 2012 just for a short tourist visit of 3 days I came from second country and there was no check for my document, because they stamped me in the first point of entry (because there was anyway flight connection).
But sudenly when I came there there was a check for luggage and everyone was checked I remember this. They ask me questions where I am going and how much I will stay. I offered them to provide hotel boking and return date tickets but they just said to open my luggage so they saw everything is fine and I was let in

Now I see that obviously this must have been the national police it really has no logic that you are checked by the regional police or administrative unit corps...
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