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Old October 27th, 2017, 09:04 PM   #16181
parcdesprinces
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Very accurate post (I believe ) regarding what's going on in Catalonia recently.....(Franco-Spanish/Catalan border... ...which was closed for a while during the -first - Spanish civil war)

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Originally Posted by parcdesprinces View Post
Oh, tu sais, ont peut toujours à nouveau fermer notre frontière, comme on l'avait glorieusement fait du temps de la guerre civile espagnole afin d'empêcher les "républicains" (aka gauchistes/rouges/bolcheviks/parents d'Hidalgourde) de passer pendant un temps...


Ah... doux souvenirs :





Non mais, ils se croyaient où tous ces pouilleux Rouges/coco espagnols !





PS: Bref, comme dirait ma maman (qui a vécu cette -indésirable- immigration dans sa jeunesse dans le Midi Toulousain) "on a pas récupéré les meilleurs en France après avoir réouvert la frontière, car ce sont les rouges (aka coco aka les pires) qui sont venu se réfugier ici"

Last edited by parcdesprinces; October 27th, 2017 at 09:10 PM.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 12:33 AM   #16182
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Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
I saw very interesting thing between Croatia and BiH in the city of Novi Grad in BiH.

There is a bridge over the river that cross the border and just down the river on the Bosnian side there is a beach and people usually swim there. But the border run just off the shore

MAP


I think Google is not accurate there.

I explain myself... when a border takes on a river, (usually, only changed if considered previously) never mind if local, regional or international (and sometimes with private lands), that border will be in the deepest point of the river.
It usually is the middle of the river but not always... but surely it will not be the shore.


The best example is this one....

https://www.google.es/maps/@-17.7891...!3m1!1e3?hl=es

Despite UN had funds to build a bridge between Botswana and Zambia to create a road, Namibia and Zimbabwe disagreed because it could take their own territory. This is, they are so big rivers that can change from one year to another and, therefore, border can change for 500m
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Old October 28th, 2017, 05:24 AM   #16183
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International border crossings

In the U.S., the Maryland/Virginia and District of Columbia/Virginia borders run along the shore of the Virginia side of the Potomac. By terms of colonial land grants. I can’t think of international examples, but I wouldn’t rule it out.

P.S.: also Delaware/New Jersey.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 10:36 AM   #16184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I think Google is not accurate there.

I explain myself... when a border takes on a river, (usually, only changed if considered previously) never mind if local, regional or international (and sometimes with private lands), that border will be in the deepest point of the river.
It usually is the middle of the river but not always... but surely it will not be the shore.


The best example is this one....

https://www.google.es/maps/@-17.7891...!3m1!1e3?hl=es

Despite UN had funds to build a bridge between Botswana and Zambia to create a road, Namibia and Zimbabwe disagreed because it could take their own territory. This is, they are so big rivers that can change from one year to another and, therefore, border can change for 500m
You are wrong. Borders of Croatia don't change as the river changes course. They stay the same. Therefore we have weird borders on some rivers.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 11:56 AM   #16185
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can an administrator delete my post without advising me ?
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Old October 28th, 2017, 01:29 PM   #16186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I think Google is not accurate there.

I explain myself... when a border takes on a river, (usually, only changed if considered previously) never mind if local, regional or international (and sometimes with private lands), that border will be in the deepest point of the river.
It usually is the middle of the river but not always... but surely it will not be the shore.


The best example is this one....

https://www.google.es/maps/@-17.7891...!3m1!1e3?hl=es

Despite UN had funds to build a bridge between Botswana and Zambia to create a road, Namibia and Zimbabwe disagreed because it could take their own territory. This is, they are so big rivers that can change from one year to another and, therefore, border can change for 500m
The example I posted is accurate there are examples where border runs near the shore but not in the 'middle' of the river.

Now in this example between Croatia and Bosnia&Hercegovina in the town of Novi Grad we see that people actually swim in the Croatian territory. If you notice further on the pic you may see people in the middle of the river Una.

Also the border between Croatia and Serbia is 'disputed' because Danube changes course. You can clearly see this in GE, and both coutries declare that their border don't move but at the same time they may lost many property because of flooding and changing course of the river.



Creating of many islands and disputed territory but still 'legal'.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 01:33 PM   #16187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gedeon View Post
You are wrong. Borders of Croatia don't change as the river changes course. They stay the same. Therefore we have weird borders on some rivers.
Thanks to point...

I know one strange regional case not far from my homecity

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.99831...!3m1!1e3?hl=es

As you can see, there is a big damn (I took a 2h tour in high speed vessel with 50km and it was gorgeous).

You would say... why there is a corner in the opposite side of the reservoir?. Reason is... it is not a river but a reservoir and they keep bounds before damn was built.

In a corner you have a small castle that I guess it will be the less visited castle in Catalonia, providing its location and how to reach, by far.

In other rivers... it is weird because rivers that go to Mediterranean are known to have a lot of water in spring and barely dry the rest of the year. It can be matter of mettres but a bound can change from one year to another.

And by the way, should you have a little countryland of your property besides a river and it changes... should it goes to opposite direction, you are lucky because your territory is enlarged. Should it damns your countryland... sorry but will have to wait for decades to keep it again (another river change, doesn't happen too much but it is considered)
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Old October 28th, 2017, 04:20 PM   #16188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I think Google is not accurate there.

...

The best example is this one....

https://www.google.es/maps/@-17.7891...!3m1!1e3?hl=es

Despite UN had funds to build a bridge between Botswana and Zambia to create a road, Namibia and Zimbabwe disagreed because it could take their own territory. This is, they are so big rivers that can change from one year to another and, therefore, border can change for 500m
So it seems that Botswana and Zambia share the border in the length of 150 metres (according to GE), while Namibia and Zimbabwe do not. The situation is very clear. Botswana and Zambia have all the rights for a bridge connection, while Namibia and Zimbabwe have not. And this situation can not change whatever Namibia and/or Zimbabwe want.

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Old October 28th, 2017, 04:44 PM   #16189
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The border between Zambia and Zimbabwe is the youngest here and it does not exist before 1911, as one might see from the map of Rhodesia from the same year (Zimbabwe is former Southern Rhodesia, Zambia is former Northwestern Rhodesia, Botswana is former Bechuanaland where Namibia is former Deutsch Südwestafrika).



It is marginal fact, but between the World Wars all four countries were British colonies or protectorates. What is the point here, regarding the British way of ruling their colonies before the WWI, it is obvious that they wanted to have at least 150 metres land of Bechuanaland at the south shore of river Zambezi, with a settlement there.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 05:22 PM   #16190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
Also the border between Croatia and Serbia is 'disputed' because Danube changes course. You can clearly see this in GE, and both coutries declare that their border don't move but at the same time they may lost many property because of flooding and changing course of the river.
The dispute arose because Danube was regulated (artificially straightened). Croatia claims border should go along the historical (old) middle, Serbia claims it should go along the new middle. It wasn't settled before because the exact course of this border wasn't important before 1991 (it was border between two federal republics). Same with Slovenia, BiH and Montenegro. The only border that is precisely determined for at least a century is the one between Croatia and Hungary.

As it can be seen here the border follows the old course of Drava river (as it was when the border was determined) which has changed since, therefore creating many "pockets" of Croatian and Hungarian land on the other side of the river.

Last edited by Gedeon; October 28th, 2017 at 05:28 PM.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 06:24 PM   #16191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I explain myself... when a border takes on a river, (usually, only changed if considered previously) never mind if local, regional or international (and sometimes with private lands), that border will be in the deepest point of the river.
I believe that this not automatic in general. Instead, it is subject to bilateral agreements (which, of course, can include elements of automation).

Most of the border between Finland and Sweden runs along rivers. The countries have agreed that the border line is confirmed every 25 years. In between, the border is unchanged, even if the main course of the rivers changes.

In addition, there is a list of so called sovereignty islands. They belong permanently to the either country in terms of tax and land legislation, regardless on the current course of the rivers. Thus, an island may be situated in Sweden, but certain Finnish laws apply, and vice versa.
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Last edited by MattiG; October 28th, 2017 at 08:26 PM.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 07:19 PM   #16192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gedeon View Post
Serbia claims it should go along the new middle. It wasn't settled before because the exact course of this border wasn't important before 1991...
Then I see this dispute as a way of showing force from Serbia. They better go claim other borders than this one because as you said the line wwas defined before 1991...
And we know very well what happened in between 1991-1995 there, so whatever they now claim must be just ordinary trolling.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 07:33 PM   #16193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
I believe that this not automatic in general. Instead, it is subject to bilateral agreements (which, of course, can include elements of automation).

Most of the border between Finland and Sweden runs along rivers. The countries have agreed that the border line is confirmed every 25 years. In between, the border is unchanged, even if the main course of the rivers changes.

In addition, there is a list of so called sovereignty islands. The belong permanently to the either country in terms of tax and land legislation, regardless on the current course of the rivers. Thus, an island may be situated in Sweden, but certain Finnish laws apply, and vice versa.

Same with Liechtenstein and Austria. For Austria, it doesn't matter, but for LIE.... it is a lot of their territory even one meter...

Liechtenstein-Switzerland has no discussion: River Rhin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
So it seems that Botswana and Zambia share the border in the length of 150 metres (according to GE), while Namibia and Zimbabwe do not. The situation is very clear. Botswana and Zambia have all the rights for a bridge connection, while Namibia and Zimbabwe have not. And this situation can not change whatever Namibia and/or Zimbabwe want.
Not exactly. Border is in the deepest point of each river. Let's consider one year one river changes a lot. Therefore border will change too for a couple of meters, enough to say they are inside their territory.

There are ferry services but both countries didn't allowed a brigde regarding that some years it could (or couldn't) cross their territory and be in the middle of nowhere
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Old October 28th, 2017, 07:43 PM   #16194
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There are plenty of examples in North America of borders that don’t move where rivers change course.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 07:47 PM   #16195
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Yes, in particular the Ohio River. Kentucky now includes land north of the river in some locations.

Mississippi River states have a lot of border sections through dead meanders, some of those are impractical or inaccessible.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 08:56 PM   #16196
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Talking about rivers (Sanlúcar de Guadiana, Spain and Alcoutim, Portugal):







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Old October 28th, 2017, 10:09 PM   #16197
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Ok.... but that little bridge is NOT the fastest way to go from Sanlucar de Guadiana to Alcoutim

I guess, this is faster!!!!


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Old October 29th, 2017, 12:08 AM   #16198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
They built a new border crossing station on French N22, a few kilometers before the border with Andorra.

I've never driven through El Pas de la Casa, but I took the Envalira Tunnel in 2008 and there was no border check of any kind. It seems to have been built around 2010.
That border crossing is a joint Andorran-French station, and replaces the old French station that was a bit further up the N22 (I think...) and the old Andorran station - here

You would have passed the French control, but Andorra probably was content with remotely observing the crossing via the toll booths at the Envalira Tunnel. Why Andorra just doesn't join Schengen is beyond me...

edit: found the old French crossing here
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Old October 29th, 2017, 12:14 AM   #16199
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I guess the older border station on N22 was only for entrance checks into France. I drove it only one way, I continued into Spain that day, where there was a border check when entering Spain. They were only interested if I purchased electronics or tobacco. The only thing I purchased was € 1/l diesel which in 2008 as you may recall, was extremely cheap at that time of sky-high fuel prices.
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Old October 29th, 2017, 01:34 AM   #16200
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Former border was pointed was in both directions and no booths to make a control

Here you are control to enter into France

https://www.google.pl/maps/@42.54337...2!8i6656?hl=en


but obviously without use... first Envalira tunnel was already built, second, you could avoid it, just walking with any street in the left of image, and finally.... the building in the back remains in Andorra by one mettre or so... rest of land is France
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