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Old January 10th, 2018, 04:27 PM   #16461
Junkie
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1340 km in length that has to be the longest land border in Europe. That is massive. How it's even guarded considering the conditions there up to the north?
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Old January 10th, 2018, 04:34 PM   #16462
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I'm glad that some countries (Slovenia, Finland,...) do take care of the outer Schengen border properly, althought unfortunately there are some weak rings on the chain, for example the sea between Italy and Lybia.
A poor enforcement of the outer Schengen border would push Schengen states to re-implement border controls between them, effectively endangering the Schengen system.
It's not a matter of populism "we should close our frontiers", but rather a proper implementation of the Schengen agreement, that involves free movement between its members but strict controls between them and the outside world.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old January 10th, 2018, 04:39 PM   #16463
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Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
1340 km in length that has to be the longest land border in Europe. That is massive. How it's even guarded considering the conditions there up to the north?
There is a closed border area on both Finnish and Russian sides. Without a proper permission, nobody can even approach the border, let alone cross it.
Aparently the Russian-Norweigian border is less stricly controlled and some migrants managed to enter Schengen area through there, although it implies travelling for hundreds of kilometers across desolated Northern lands.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 05:35 PM   #16464
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The strictness of the control of the border is irrelevant as long as anyone is allowed to enter anyway. All that is required is that they just claim to be seeking for asylum.

There are not many asylum seekers on Finland's eastern border, but that has little to do with Finnish border control being strict: it is Russia that controls people exiting. Russia doesn't let people approach the border without appropriate documents.

This is the outer limit of the Russian border zone, not the actual border crossing point, on E18 towards Helsinki:

https://www.google.fi/maps/@60.60744...7i13312!8i6656
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Old January 10th, 2018, 05:42 PM   #16465
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You have to have a tank to pass Russia, considering that on the link you posted they have that steel wheel for deflating tyres
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

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Old January 10th, 2018, 05:47 PM   #16466
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1340 km in length that has to be the longest land border in Europe. That is massive. How it's even guarded considering the conditions there up to the north?
Sweden-Norway and Russia-Ukraine border are both longer than that. Even the section actually controlled by the Ukrainian government, and with Crimea excluded, is longer than the Finland-Russia border.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 05:53 PM   #16467
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You have to have a tank to pass Russia, considering that on the link you posted they have that steel wheel for deflating tyres
True, but once again, in that picture we are exiting Russia...
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Old January 10th, 2018, 05:58 PM   #16468
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Sorry for not being exact. IMHO, guarding a border line is not bullying. Capture the trespassers is not either.

But once the police find out the consequences, they should be given some symbolic fine, not 1.000 €. It is way too much for EU citizens.
It's €500, not €1000. They were fined €2000 altogether because the fine is per person. Setting up a more lenient system for EU citizens will just incentivize crossing the border illegally and not all EU citizens have good intentions.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 06:23 PM   #16469
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There is a closed border area on both Finnish and Russian sides. Without a proper permission, nobody can even approach the border, let alone cross it.
Aparently the Russian-Norweigian border is less stricly controlled and some migrants managed to enter Schengen area through there, although it implies travelling for hundreds of kilometers across desolated Northern lands.
There is also a closed Russian border zone area (~35 km wide) on the Russian-Norwegian border. In 2015, for reasons we can only speculate, the Russians opened up this area for asylum seekers such that they could cross the border to seek asylum, but this option now seems firmly closed again.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 06:27 PM   #16470
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In 2015, for reasons we can only speculate, the Russians opened up this area for asylum seekers such that they could cross the border to seek asylum, but this option now seems firmly closed again.
Maybe Russia was happy to get rid of them and pass the issue to Norway?
Like Italian police, that allegedly often closes its eyes on trainloads of refugees who head towards the Brenner, hoping that they will become someone else's issue.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 06:31 PM   #16471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
1340 km in length that has to be the longest land border in Europe. That is massive. How it's even guarded considering the conditions there up to the north?
Most of the surveillance is nowadays based on technology. Men walking along the border with dogs is old-fashioned. In addition, there is a restricted-access frontier zone at the border. Basically, everyone moving at the proximity of the border raises an exception flag.



BTW, the coastline is under surveillance, too. There are zillions of remote-operated cameras around, and everyone approaching from the will be seen.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 06:57 PM   #16472
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Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Most of the surveillance is nowadays based on technology. Men walking along the border with dogs is old-fashioned. In addition, there is a restricted-access frontier zone at the border. Basically, everyone moving at the proximity of the border raises an exception flag.







BTW, the coastline is under surveillance, too. There are zillions of remote-operated cameras around, and everyone approaching from the will be seen.


How can they do that in Real-time in practice. Must be a boring job to look at the screens all the time.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 07:56 PM   #16473
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But the cameras cannot 'catch' in practice, they just provide access to illegal migration and if there is no police around they cannot catch the runners are already in Russia

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for example the sea between Italy and Lybia.
I see you all the time speak about the migrant crisis here. But let me remind you those who failed to stop the Syrian wave are called Greece. Greece is the weakest point as they border Turkey as they have so many islands to close proximity of Turkish continental territory. Failing to protect your borders we saw a result which is called = refugees in Europe.
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

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MK A AL B BiH BG HR CZ EST F FIN D GR H I LT MNE NL SRB SK SLO E TR PL RKS
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Old January 10th, 2018, 08:16 PM   #16474
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How can they do that in Real-time in practice. Must be a boring job to look at the screens all the time.
Motion detectors, shape detection, etc. The border control systems are hi-tech. Better not to underestimate the military-class technology in use.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 08:18 PM   #16475
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Ok, it may sound bulling, but imagine being a policeman patrolling the border in a forest in the middle of the night and you see two cars in a place where they aren't supposed to be and you expect the worst (on the outer Schengen border illegal migrants, drug and human traffikers are daily matter). Its normal to become defensive, and put your hand close to your gun 'just in case'.
But after they check the passports/IDs and identifying that those people are from the EU, they could just say "well, OK, don't do it again" instead of giving them so high fines. Especially taking into account that they did it by mistake. Although Google Maps warns about it when it finds a route that crosses the state border.

By the way, those border crossings should not be marked at all as driveable on Google Maps.

And if you are not from the EU/Schengen, even from a country like the US, you pay.

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Goverments typically follow a strict policy to illegal border crossing. The default fine for someone travelling from Helsinki to Tallinn without proper travel documents, is about 750 euros for an average-income citizen.
Aren't both Finland and Estonia in Schengen area?

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Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
The Finnish-Russian border is 1340 kilometers in length, and no millimeter of it is unguarded.

There is no fence preventing from entering the border, but about everyone tampering the border will be seen and arrested.
Still, there are probably clear and multi-lingual signs that entering that area is forbidden.

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Originally Posted by kreden View Post
It's €500, not €1000. They were fined €2000 altogether because the fine is per person. Setting up a more lenient system for EU citizens will just incentivize crossing the border illegally and not all EU citizens have good intentions.
But regardless of their intentions, they can anyway easily cross the border at any checkpoint.

And it's not like they could be smuggling anything through the border because the EU is a common economic area.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 08:34 PM   #16476
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But the cameras cannot 'catch' in practice, they just provide access to illegal migration and if there is no police around they cannot catch the runners are already in Russia
If someone really wants to run from Finland to Russia illegally, it is a problem of the Russian authorities and especially the runner's.

As said, there is a buffer zone at the border, and most of the border runs through unpopulated areas. It will take a time walk to some kilometers in a deep forest trying to find a road and then to walk some tens of kilometers to the nearest town. The local people most probably will report the suspects to the authorities. Even if there is not 24/7 patrolling at every meter of the border line itself, the frontier guards are somewhere nearby.

A few years ago, I was taking some photos in a place where the border line lies only a few hundred meters apart. In five minutes after my stopping there, a car of the frontier guards "happened" to pass me.

Believe me, there is no sense on testing the strength of that border.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 08:43 PM   #16477
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Aren't both Finland and Estonia in Schengen area?
Yes, they are, but it is an irrelevant fact. Even if there are no regular border checks at the intra-Schengen borders, a valid official ID card or a passport is still mandatory.

(The Nordic passport union is more relaxed. Leaving Finland for Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Iceland without travel documents is not a crime.)
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Old January 10th, 2018, 08:56 PM   #16478
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I see you all the time speak about the migrant crisis here. But let me remind you those who failed to stop the Syrian wave are called Greece. Greece is the weakest point as they border Turkey as they have so many islands to close proximity of Turkish continental territory. Failing to protect your borders we saw a result which is called = refugees in Europe.
Italy and Greece have the hardest job in patrolling the outer Schengen border, as patrolling the sea is much harder than patrolling the land, and both countries are the natural gateway from Africa and Middle East into Europe.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 09:02 PM   #16479
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But after they check the passports/IDs and identifying that those people are from the EU, they could just say "well, OK, don't do it again" instead of giving them so high fines. Especially taking into account that they did it by mistake. Although Google Maps warns about it when it finds a route that crosses the state border.

By the way, those border crossings should not be marked at all as driveable on Google Maps.

And if you are not from the EU/Schengen, even from a country like the US, you pay.


But regardless of their intentions, they can anyway easily cross the border at any checkpoint.

And it's not like they could be smuggling anything through the border because the EU is a common economic area.
The law should be equal to everyone. If one is from EU, it doesn't mean they necessarily have better intentions than someone from outside EU.
The EU is a common economic area so there is not smuggling in the strict sense. Correct. But for someone who's going to smuggle drugs, weapons, stolen goods, or even humans between Schengen area and Balkan countries, going across an unmanned HR-SLO border crossing might be an interesting option.

I agree that it was a Google Maps's fault; it should know which roads are closed. OSM, instead, takes you through an open border crossing.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 11:17 PM   #16480
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Yes, they are, but it is an irrelevant fact. Even if there are no regular border checks at the intra-Schengen borders, a valid official ID card or a passport is still mandatory.
Actually, there is no general EU-wide law that would make it mandatory. It's up to the Schengen member states which may make it obligatory to carry an ID document with you.
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