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Old January 10th, 2018, 11:28 PM   #16481
italystf
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Italian citizens within Italy can use any valid document with personal details and photo to identify themselves: ID, passport, driving license, hunting license, fishing license, etc...
But we need to carry either ID or passport if we travel to another Schengen country.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 11:43 PM   #16482
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It is also said very often in Poland - but actually, there is no such general law for the whole Schengen zone. It's up to the countries what they do about that.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 11:50 PM   #16483
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Originally Posted by tfd543 View Post
How can they do that in Real-time in practice. Must be a boring job to look at the screens all the time.
In Spain they do it




left, Morocco, right (after fence) Spain. Text says, camera number 1 in boundary border (or so, not easy to translate)

There are radars (and red-rays for nights) in the strait for ships and little vessels going from Africa to Europe. Helicopters and police vessels are warned if something could be illegal inmigration or smuggling (nevertheless... I watched a Discovery program where almost all of them were smuggling but once, a strange vessel... was just a fisher's boat with broken engine. That was reason why they were going without route. Police arrived and helped them to reach harbour again)
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Old January 11th, 2018, 10:08 AM   #16484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Italian citizens within Italy can use any valid document with personal details and photo to identify themselves: ID, passport, driving license, hunting license, fishing license, etc...
But we need to carry either ID or passport if we travel to another Schengen country.
Same here. During the summer season I am also able to visit Macedonia or Serbia with my ID. I am not sure if this is a bilateral agreement or Schengen-wide and I am not sure if this is not extended to whole year, but first it was intended for tourists travelling to Greece. I have not used it though. Always hope for stamps in my passport, but officers are now generally too miserly to give a pair of stamps.

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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I'm glad that some countries (Slovenia, Finland,...) do take care of the outer Schengen border properly, althought unfortunately there are some weak rings on the chain, for example the sea between Italy and Lybia.
A poor enforcement of the outer Schengen border would push Schengen states to re-implement border controls between them, effectively endangering the Schengen system.
It's not a matter of populism "we should close our frontiers", but rather a proper implementation of the Schengen agreement, that involves free movement between its members but strict controls between them and the outside world.
I am certainly not an Orban admirer (he is an authoritarian), but what he did was just a good job. Indeed he abused the whole situation to earn some valuable political points, but let me put it straight: I would like to see a politician who would not if were in his shoes. He just did what he had to.

I remember some Schengen accession talks - we had to protect (as a prevention) the Slovak-Ukrainian border by advanced technical and military equipment before entering the treaty. 2015 was a real crisis and suddenly countries were advised not to act. Something I can't understand.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 11:44 AM   #16485
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Actually, there is no general EU-wide law that would make it mandatory. It's up to the Schengen member states which may make it obligatory to carry an ID document with you.
That is one of the cornerstones of the Schengen agreement, contained in the the Article 23 of the Schengen border code. That is why the question if both Finland and Estonia are members to the Schengen area or not is irrelevant.

I believe that most member countries follow the same principles as Finland does, according to this document: http://www.formin.finland.fi/public/...&culture=en-US

The default is that a passport is accepted always, as well as the national ID card the member country issues to its own citizens. Diving licences, British gas bills, hunting licenses etc are not trusted and generally accepted ways to proof the citizenship.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 01:01 PM   #16486
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Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
But regardless of their intentions, they can anyway easily cross the border at any checkpoint.

And it's not like they could be smuggling anything through the border because the EU is a common economic area.
They can easily cross the border at a checkpoint, but only at a checkpoint. And there are definitely many things they can be smuggling, from illegal substances to goods that fall under excise duty regulation, such as fuel, cigarettes and alcohol. These cannot be carried freely from one EU country to another. Just because someone has an EU passport does not mean they get a free pass.

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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I agree that it was a Google Maps's fault; it should know which roads are closed. OSM, instead, takes you through an open border crossing.
Border crossings are always a bit problematic. Some are only for locals, others only for citizens of certain countries, then there are different opening times, etc. For example, if you are a non-EU citizen and travelling from Ljubljana to Zagreb by car, you can only use the motorway border crossing on the A2/A3. There are three other crossings in the area, all for EU citizens only and not even OSM can help in that regard. The nearest non-motorway border crossings for all passengers are Metlika and Bistrica ob Sotli, both a 50km detour.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 01:04 PM   #16487
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...

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Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
Some countries have long land borders like Finland and Russia? So I guess its VERY easy just to pass it illegally considering its unguarded length. But we must distinct here between illegal immigration and refugees from the Middle East and curiosity 'to see' the other side with your identification documents.
FIN-RUS border is very strictly protected, especially by the finnish side...
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Old January 11th, 2018, 03:37 PM   #16488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
That is one of the cornerstones of the Schengen agreement, contained in the the Article 23 of the Schengen border code. That is why the question if both Finland and Estonia are members to the Schengen area or not is irrelevant.

I believe that most member countries follow the same principles as Finland does, according to this document: http://www.formin.finland.fi/public/...&culture=en-US

The default is that a passport is accepted always, as well as the national ID card the member country issues to its own citizens. Diving licences, British gas bills, hunting licenses etc are not trusted and generally accepted ways to proof the citizenship.

I disagree...

In Spain it is absolutely compulsery to hold your own ID card always, without exemption. Just in case... a passport would be accepted but sometimes they point that you are requested to hold always ID card (for older 14 years old, indeed) not a passport, hence, show anywhere your ID card and even a driving licence.
Reason is they are the unique official documents with photo. For voting they are all of them accepted by law, but no one more.

But for other reasons, concrete document. This is, providing you are stopped by police when driving and ask your driving licence, you may show driving licence. Obviously, if you do not carry it, you can show your ID card and they can match you have driving licence (and not expired or requested because strong problems or so...) but will be fined because for driving, carrying driving licence is compulsory. There are some people that hold their driving licence in the car (but obviously you will have problems if driving another car).

This is... having compulsory "at home" carrying ID card, are there differences between Schengen and no Schengen?

Yes, there are. A long time ago, in airports you had "domestic flights" and "international flights". Nowadays you have "Schengen flights" and "non-Schengen flights". No passport or ID card will be requested if you get a flight to anywhere in Schengen area.

With roads, new international road or motorways are ready without booths, and some of them have been removed. Sometime you can cross the border without noticing it.... with France and Portugal, obviously.


Just...
https://www.google.es/maps/@41.02541...2!8i6656?hl=es

decide, go ahead (remain in Spain) or turn left (entry into Portugal)
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Old January 11th, 2018, 04:29 PM   #16489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I disagree...

In Spain it is absolutely compulsery to hold your own ID card always, without exemption.
No, it's not. You only have to give your name and ID number when required.

The problem is that if the police officer can't verify your identity in situ (via radio/phone), you can be taken to the nearest police station

Source (in Spanish): https://red-juridica.com/es-obligatorio-portar-dni/
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Old January 11th, 2018, 04:44 PM   #16490
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Same here. During the summer season I am also able to visit Macedonia or Serbia with my ID. I am not sure if this is a bilateral agreement
Nothing is bilateral it is with the fact that the Commission asked Western Balkans states to treat the same EU citizens when crossing into.
So again: ALL EU citizens plus Switzerland, Norway and Iceland can visit the 6 Balkan states with ID only and cross intra between these NON-EU countries. And you are lucky and privileged because of this, since for example we had visas for years and we will still have to register and pay before going in EU!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitacit View Post
FIN-RUS border is very strictly protected, especially by the finnish side...
Really? I didn't said it is not, I know Finish military is very determined and they are ready for 'Russian invasion'
I know and they are very developed and I absolutely am sure it is.
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

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MK A AL B BiH BG HR CZ EST F FIN D GR H I LT MNE NL SRB SK SLO E TR PL RKS
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Old January 11th, 2018, 04:55 PM   #16491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
Nothing is bilateral it is with the fact that the Commission asked Western Balkans states to treat the same EU citizens when crossing into.
So again: ALL EU citizens plus Switzerland, Norway and Iceland can visit the 6 Balkan states with ID only and cross intra between these NON-EU countries. And you are lucky and privileged because of this, since for example we had visas for years and we will still have to register and pay before going in EU!
Yeah, the same went for Macedonia until 2006. You have to visit Vienna and pay for registration that added up to c. 170 € / person.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 05:02 PM   #16492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I disagree...
What do you disagree, in exact terms?
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Old January 11th, 2018, 05:05 PM   #16493
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Yeah, the same went for Macedonia until 2006. You have to visit Vienna and pay for registration that added up to c. 170 € / person.
No, the same went for us until 2010, and for BiH until 2011. Now currently only Kosovo has visa for EU. The visas were the toughest you can get not just money but you need to provide tons of papers of your employee, bank accounts, proofs of courts, proofs for medical insurance etc.... And they 'decide' after some period.
But the new system that is coming up it will be a hassle and discrimination since we will need to REGISTER and PAY in advance for us to move to neighbour countries and with biometric passport.... Very 'European' for visiting countries that are still poor like Balkan....
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

BEEN IN:
MK A AL B BiH BG HR CZ EST F FIN D GR H I LT MNE NL SRB SK SLO E TR PL RKS

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Old January 11th, 2018, 05:24 PM   #16494
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Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
What do you disagree, in exact terms?
I have to hold an ID card (ok, I haven't, providing police can identify me... should they cannot, I will go to a police station just to be identified... and really, prefer to hold it instead of losing time). Therefore, it doesn't matter if Schengen requires holding ID card anywhere... because I hold it always

(in addition, to pay with visa card or so, it must be shown)
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Old January 11th, 2018, 06:07 PM   #16495
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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I disagree...

In Spain it is absolutely compulsery to hold your own ID card always, without exemption. ...
Is it still compulsory to show your ID card if you want to pay with debit or credit card?

It was compuslory last time I was in Spain (in 2007) and I like that practice very much.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 07:34 PM   #16496
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yes it is
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Old January 11th, 2018, 09:58 PM   #16497
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There is also a closed Russian border zone area (~35 km wide) on the Russian-Norwegian border. In 2015, for reasons we can only speculate, the Russians opened up this area for asylum seekers such that they could cross the border to seek asylum, but this option now seems firmly closed again.
It was a loophole in the border agreement, russians are not allowed to let enter the border crossing those without proper permission to enter Norway, but the agreement was unclear on asylum seekers since they had a permission to seek asylum in Norway - on the other hand it was illegal to cross the border on foot, that is why the bikes. The first migrant to figure out this loophole was certainly quite clever - needless to say it didn't take long before a new agreement was made, and russia accepted to take back the migrants who didn't recieve asylum.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 10:44 PM   #16498
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Russia is actually the worlds single country that borders 15 countries, if we take in mind that it is at a staggering 20+ thousand kilometers of land borders... At least they said on the documentary about this info. So go bet and figure it out how are they going to 'protect' those borders.
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

BEEN IN:
MK A AL B BiH BG HR CZ EST F FIN D GR H I LT MNE NL SRB SK SLO E TR PL RKS
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Old January 11th, 2018, 11:44 PM   #16499
eeee.
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Russia is actually the worlds single country that borders 15 countries, if we take in mind that it is at a staggering 20+ thousand kilometers of land borders... At least they said on the documentary about this info. So go bet and figure it out how are they going to 'protect' those borders.
Russia has 14 neighbours. Like China.

(Almost all of your posts are wrong or moronic. Stop it, please.)
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Old January 12th, 2018, 08:56 AM   #16500
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Originally Posted by eeee. View Post
Russia has 14 neighbours. Like China.
Russians would not agree.
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