Rays planning new ballpark?

[Robert.Maddrey]

Originally Posted by multifamilyinvestor

Well the index is the Median Home Price. I am saying that the Median Home Price in Tampa will never return to pre-2002 levels.

I agree that the market probably won't pick up in a year. But take a look at what is on the horizon. The oldest Baby boomers (Born in 1946) are 61 this year. Just wait until they start retiring in mass and move to warmer climes. We will see how the Florida Real Estate market takes off.

I would not be so sure about that, on either front. Many analysts are predicting that the bottom of the market is no where within sight as of yet and that we will indeed see a return to 2000 level prices as the local economy is stagnant and incapable of supporting inflated property values beyond that. If the $ keeps devaluating, and gas prices reach $4 as projected in 2008, it really will not surprise me as even transplants with money from home sales in more valuable areas of the country will not be able to so readily handle the expense, when compounded with the reality of our job market.

All of those far flung suburban McMansions are going to be all the less desirable and even harder to sell for anyone that has not been in them for oh, 10 years or so and who has not collected on their equity previously. The economy is in the tank, contrary to what many would like us to beleive. Though, I am not an ecconomist it would certainly seem to me that the indicators are strong that 2008 may well represent a return to stagflation.

Just, my $.02...I could be wrong.

[HARTride 2012]

Returning to topic now...

Something like this?

By AARON SHAROCKMAN, Times Staff Writer
Published November 18, 2007


This drawing is based on the recollection of several people who have seen the team's version. Talks focused on the roof structure as well as the grass berms and stadium roof.

[John Corbitt | Times Illustration]


On his second day running the Tampa Bay Rays, principal owner Stuart Sternberg tipped his hand about plans for an open-air baseball stadium.

We just didn't know it then.

"Ideally you want to be outdoors when it's beautiful and you want to be indoors when it's not," Sternberg said Oct. 7, 2005. "We will explore certain possible new technologies that develop and might give us the opportunity to keep out the weather but sort of keep in the environment."

Now we know what Sternberg had in mind.

The Rays won't reveal their drawing for the new ballpark they are proposing on the downtown waterfront. But based on discussions with people who have seen renderings of the team's version, the St. Petersburg Times created its own.

If the Rays' dream ballpark is ever built, it would be one of a kind. Picture an outdoor stadium where Al Lang Field now stands.

Out past left field looms the city skyline. Over center, the Pier. To right, Tampa Bay.

A grass berm rings the outfield. A new grassy park borders the north end of the stadium.

A steel roof covers the top of the horseshoe-shaped grandstands.

Above that, hundreds of yards of fabric sails are stored. A series of cables runs from the roof to a mast in center field, 300-feet-tall. Other cables arch across the stadium to help create a form.

Then, the storm comes.

With a push of the button, the fabric starts to unfurl. It rises toward the hulking center field poll.

When it's in place, the fabric covers the stands and most of the field. It provides shade for the field and the seats, and protects fans and players from the rain.

The concept for the Rays new stadium is unique. No major league baseball stadium has a fabric roof that covers the field, but keeps baseball outdoors.

Most roofs that retract are built on a rail-like system. In Houston, where the Astros play, the entire roof simply slides off on a track.

In Milwaukee, the roof of the stadium opens and closes like a Japanese fan.

But designs like those take room. They probably wouldn't fit on the Rays' preferred site, Al Lang Field, the team's spring training home. And they tend to be expensive.

An industry expert said the Rays' sail could cut temperatures in the stadium by as much as 20 degrees.

And home runs could still reach Tampa Bay.

How hot would it be?

As innovative as it may sound, there are plenty of questions regarding the Rays' design. Lots of them have to do with structural engineering.

But a more pressing issue remains.

Outdoor baseball in St. Petersburg? In July?

Though Tropicana Field consistently is listed near the top of baseball's worst stadiums list, it was built with a dome on top for a reason.

The average high in St. Petersburg during July and August is 90 degrees. On average, there are nearly 15 inches of rain in those two months.

"I'm a Rays fan who kind of likes that 72 degree temperature," City Council member Jamie Bennett said recently.

According to experts, the fabric the Rays choose could help mitigate concerns about heat.

Rick Hughes, project manager at Sky Shades, an Orlando-area company that sells fabric coverings, said a fabric roof could keep parts of the stadium 20 degrees cooler during the hottest parts of the day.

The fabric, a lightweight synthetic polymer, would reflect 70 percent of the visible light and 99 percent of the more dangerous UV rays, Hughes said.

But the fabric allows enough light to pass through to play a baseball game during the day.

"It's very doable," Hughes said. "In fact, it's being done."

Soccer stadiums in Australia, Europe and Asia are being constructed using similar technology, Hughes and others said.

None look like the Rays proposal, but most work in the same general way.

In Japan, the 45,000-seat Toyota Stadium has a fabric roof that slides into place almost like a roll-up door. In Spain, a bullfighting ring has a circular roof that lifts and slides away.

The Rays said Friday they likely will unveil more details about the new 35,000-seat stadium by the end of the month.

Roof specifics secret

The circle of people who know about the roof's design is small. It includes city and team officials and the architects and consultants themselves.

Bart Dreiling, the president of a Kansas City company that deals in fabric roofing products, said a stadium architect recently showed him a design for a Florida ballpark.

Dreiling remembers the designer saying the stadium was top secret. The architect never said where in Florida the stadium was. And Dreiling never asked.

"It could have been the Devil Rays," Dreiling said. "It might not have been. I can't say."

In any event, Dreiling was reluctant to talk about that specific project.

But in general, Dreiling said what the Rays may be considering is certainly possible.

The team has hired a Minnesota consulting firm to help engineer the roof's movement.

Uni-System has designed the roofing mechanisms for three major league stadiums - football and baseball stadium in Houston, and the football stadium in Phoenix.

Cyril Silberman, Uni-Systems' founder and CEO, said he is prevented from discussing the Rays roof because of a confidentiality agreement.

But he, too, said what the team is proposing is feasible.

"It can be done," Silberman said. "The Europeans have played around with it, making retractable fabric roofs.

But "not anything like what the Rays want."

Aaron Sharockman can be reached at asharockman@sptimes.com or 727 892-2273.



Q&A: The stadium

Is that drawing what the new stadium will look like?

The drawing is based on the recollection of several people who have seen the team's version. Talks focused on the roof structure as well as the grass berms and stadium roof.



How does the sail work?

Fabric panels are stored on top of the roof and are attached to cables that extend to a 300-foot-tall pole in center field. When the roof is activated, the cables unfurl the fabric and pull it toward the pole.



Will it prevent rain outs?

Mostly. The fabric will cover the stands and most of the field. Parts of the outfield could be exposed, especially under windy conditions.



What about the heat?

Experts say the fabric reflects most sunlight. One expert said the fabric could provide up to a 20 degree difference during the day.



[Last modified November 17, 2007, 22:58:27]

[Robert.Maddrey]

Still strikes me as a waste. Might as well get those idiots from "pimp my ride" to come on in and set things up.

[John F]

The Expos planned something like this for a new Montreal stadium that never got built.

Heck, La Stadia Olympique was supposed to be a retractable roof but the structure couldn't take it.-- fiberglass isn't supposed to be folded or bent regularly.

A "sail" structure like this raises more questions than answers. Who covers costs when (not if) they rip? What's the max sustained winds during a storm they could tolerate? It's that "sail pole" in center field a potential lightning rod and counterproductive to the entire "covered for rain" concept of the "sails"?

[HARTride 2012]

I dislike the concept also. It makes the stadium look too "Buccaneer"ish...

[jvance75]

based off current market data for the state of Florida, Tampa/St. Pete and Jacksonville keep outperforming every other metro in this soft housing market, large and small, in the state. The largest lenders in the state love these two markets in the current economic situation....South Florida on both sides(Miami to Naples) and to a lesser extent the greater Orlando market seem to be hit the hardest this time around.

[SDK4]

Originally Posted by wslupecki

Returning to topic now...

Something like this?

By AARON SHAROCKMAN, Times Staff Writer
Published November 18, 2007


This drawing is based on the recollection of several people who have seen the team's version. Talks focused on the roof structure as well as the grass berms and stadium roof.

[John Corbitt | Times Illustration]


On his second day running the Tampa Bay Rays, principal owner Stuart Sternberg tipped his hand about plans for an open-air baseball stadium.

We just didn't know it then.

"Ideally you want to be outdoors when it's beautiful and you want to be indoors when it's not," Sternberg said Oct. 7, 2005. "We will explore certain possible new technologies that develop and might give us the opportunity to keep out the weather but sort of keep in the environment."

Now we know what Sternberg had in mind.

The Rays won't reveal their drawing for the new ballpark they are proposing on the downtown waterfront. But based on discussions with people who have seen renderings of the team's version, the St. Petersburg Times created its own.

If the Rays' dream ballpark is ever built, it would be one of a kind. Picture an outdoor stadium where Al Lang Field now stands.

Out past left field looms the city skyline. Over center, the Pier. To right, Tampa Bay.

A grass berm rings the outfield. A new grassy park borders the north end of the stadium.

A steel roof covers the top of the horseshoe-shaped grandstands.

Above that, hundreds of yards of fabric sails are stored. A series of cables runs from the roof to a mast in center field, 300-feet-tall. Other cables arch across the stadium to help create a form.

Then, the storm comes.

With a push of the button, the fabric starts to unfurl. It rises toward the hulking center field poll.

When it's in place, the fabric covers the stands and most of the field. It provides shade for the field and the seats, and protects fans and players from the rain.

The concept for the Rays new stadium is unique. No major league baseball stadium has a fabric roof that covers the field, but keeps baseball outdoors.

Most roofs that retract are built on a rail-like system. In Houston, where the Astros play, the entire roof simply slides off on a track.

In Milwaukee, the roof of the stadium opens and closes like a Japanese fan.

But designs like those take room. They probably wouldn't fit on the Rays' preferred site, Al Lang Field, the team's spring training home. And they tend to be expensive.

An industry expert said the Rays' sail could cut temperatures in the stadium by as much as 20 degrees.

And home runs could still reach Tampa Bay.

How hot would it be?

As innovative as it may sound, there are plenty of questions regarding the Rays' design. Lots of them have to do with structural engineering.

But a more pressing issue remains.

Outdoor baseball in St. Petersburg? In July?

Though Tropicana Field consistently is listed near the top of baseball's worst stadiums list, it was built with a dome on top for a reason.

The average high in St. Petersburg during July and August is 90 degrees. On average, there are nearly 15 inches of rain in those two months.

"I'm a Rays fan who kind of likes that 72 degree temperature," City Council member Jamie Bennett said recently.

According to experts, the fabric the Rays choose could help mitigate concerns about heat.

Rick Hughes, project manager at Sky Shades, an Orlando-area company that sells fabric coverings, said a fabric roof could keep parts of the stadium 20 degrees cooler during the hottest parts of the day.

The fabric, a lightweight synthetic polymer, would reflect 70 percent of the visible light and 99 percent of the more dangerous UV rays, Hughes said.

But the fabric allows enough light to pass through to play a baseball game during the day.

"It's very doable," Hughes said. "In fact, it's being done."

Soccer stadiums in Australia, Europe and Asia are being constructed using similar technology, Hughes and others said.

None look like the Rays proposal, but most work in the same general way.

In Japan, the 45,000-seat Toyota Stadium has a fabric roof that slides into place almost like a roll-up door. In Spain, a bullfighting ring has a circular roof that lifts and slides away.

The Rays said Friday they likely will unveil more details about the new 35,000-seat stadium by the end of the month.

Roof specifics secret

The circle of people who know about the roof's design is small. It includes city and team officials and the architects and consultants themselves.

Bart Dreiling, the president of a Kansas City company that deals in fabric roofing products, said a stadium architect recently showed him a design for a Florida ballpark.

Dreiling remembers the designer saying the stadium was top secret. The architect never said where in Florida the stadium was. And Dreiling never asked.

"It could have been the Devil Rays," Dreiling said. "It might not have been. I can't say."

In any event, Dreiling was reluctant to talk about that specific project.

But in general, Dreiling said what the Rays may be considering is certainly possible.

The team has hired a Minnesota consulting firm to help engineer the roof's movement.

Uni-System has designed the roofing mechanisms for three major league stadiums - football and baseball stadium in Houston, and the football stadium in Phoenix.

Cyril Silberman, Uni-Systems' founder and CEO, said he is prevented from discussing the Rays roof because of a confidentiality agreement.

But he, too, said what the team is proposing is feasible.

"It can be done," Silberman said. "The Europeans have played around with it, making retractable fabric roofs.

But "not anything like what the Rays want."

Aaron Sharockman can be reached at asharockman@sptimes.com or 727 892-2273.



Q&A: The stadium

Is that drawing what the new stadium will look like?

The drawing is based on the recollection of several people who have seen the team's version. Talks focused on the roof structure as well as the grass berms and stadium roof.



How does the sail work?

Fabric panels are stored on top of the roof and are attached to cables that extend to a 300-foot-tall pole in center field. When the roof is activated, the cables unfurl the fabric and pull it toward the pole.



Will it prevent rain outs?

Mostly. The fabric will cover the stands and most of the field. Parts of the outfield could be exposed, especially under windy conditions.



What about the heat?

Experts say the fabric reflects most sunlight. One expert said the fabric could provide up to a 20 degree difference during the day.



[Last modified November 17, 2007, 22:58:27]

Please god NOOOOOO. That stadium looks like a piece of s%^&. I would never go to see a game there. I like the fact they are thinking outside the box with the whole sail thing and it could work, but I pray that it does not look like that. And a grass berm outfield? Why? This looks like a spring training field, just made bigger for the D-Rays. Plus from the looks of where the right field wall is and with the road there, most HR balls to right would just hit the cars going by not Tampa Bay. I hope this was just a preliminary outlook and they were mixing things up. I would want to stay at the Trop rather then move here.

[jonknee]

Originally Posted by SDK4

Please god NOOOOOO. That stadium looks like a piece of s%^&. I would never go to see a game there. I like the fact they are thinking outside the box with the whole sail thing and it could work, but I pray that it does not look like that. And a grass berm outfield? Why? This looks like a spring training field, just made bigger for the D-Rays. Plus from the looks of where the right field wall is and with the road there, most HR balls to right would just hit the cars going by not Tampa Bay. I hope this was just a preliminary outlook and they were mixing things up. I would want to stay at the Trop rather then move here.

It's just a sketch by someone who talked to people who know something about the stadium. I'll wait until a real rendering comes out before passing judgement.

[thehappysmith]

I love the sketch. I think it would be a great place for a ballgame. I wish they had that stadium now because it would have been an awesome place to propose to my fiancee... not that the Trop wasn't more than up to the task (as was Raymond). The sails are a unique idea; I can't wait to see what the real proposal is. It may not look the same, but the idea of a stadium being both open air and covered--that's what I want anyway. I'd hope the sails wouldn't come all the way to the roofline of the stadium, leaving space for air to flow through.
Look, baseball is more fun outside. But it's damned hot in the Florida sun. This allows us to have an outdoor stadium with shade. And maybe big fans? And it's oriented to catch the breeze blowing in off the bay. Sure, the sails would rip from time to time, but the cost of repairing/replacing those sails would be orders of magnitude cheaper than a full retractable roof, and the sails will keep the sun off of everybody in the stadium.
As for the grass berm outfield, I think it's a great idea and I hope whatever the final design is it's included. The grass berms in the outfield at Al Lange are one of the best parts of the park: bring a cooler and a towel, watch the game from there. Those seats sell out before any other seats in the park. Certainly that's at least in part because they're cheaper--but the Beach seats at the Trop don't sell out every night even though they're the cheapest seats in the house. The Beach sucks. The grass berm at Al Lang is cool.

Of course I'm waiting for a sketch or even some comments from the Rays organization, but if this is the direction they're going, I think it's great.

[multifamilyinvestor]

A 500 foot mast will easily be the tallest structure in St. Petersburg. I can't imagine that being allowed so close to the airport. If it is approved and done right, it might be a nice landmark for St. Petersburg. In addition, maybe the FAA will lesson the height restriction for other buildings if they allow that structure.

[jonknee]

Originally Posted by multifamilyinvestor

A 500 foot mast will easily be the tallest structure in St. Petersburg. I can't imagine that being allowed so close to the airport. If it is approved and done right, it might be a nice landmark for St. Petersburg. In addition, maybe the FAA will lesson the height restriction for other buildings if they allow that structure.

The font is a little weird, but I read that as 300ft. Who knows though, as I said before, it's just a sketch by someone from second hand info.

[multifamilyinvestor]

Yes - I stand corrected - I had a hard time seeing it at my resolution.

[John F]

The rendering unveiling and the first true public talk about the new stadium will be on Wednesday, November 28th at Al Lang (Progress Energy Park) at 3 PM.

MLB CEO Bob Dupuey (spelling?), Charlie Crist and Rick Baker are all supposed to be in attendance along with Stuart Sternberg.

[HARTride 2012]

Interesting...

[FlaNatv]

I don't know if this has been mentioned since I did not read all the post. IMO they need to get out of their division to have a chance at moving up and winning some titles. They're never going to beat the Red Sox or Yankees for leader of the division. From what I've heard, the original owner wanted to make quick money on sell outs for BoSox and Yanks games, but in return the Rays can't make it to the next level.

The Ideal Location is the Gateway area. It's more central to the regional population(From Citrus to Sarasota)There are plenty of restaurants around for pre and post game dining and many of hotels. It's at the future junction of I-275 and the Us-19/118th corridor expresway.

Definately needs to be a retractable roof like the one in Toronto.

[smiley]

It is a 300 ft mast and the scale is off. 300 ft across the street from signature - which will be much taller - will easily be ok (or should be - you never know with the FAA). From my understanding of the deal - it is not a bad plan - essentially costing $60 mil of taxes - because Tropicana development is worthless if you keep the rays there and the city will never sell the Al Lang lot for private development. I just hope the stadium is actually decent. . . and I don't buy 20 degrees - maybe 10, and what of humidity

[John F]

Originally Posted by FlaNatv

I don't know if this has been mentioned since I did not read all the post. IMO they need to get out of their division to have a chance at moving up and winning some titles. They're never going to beat the Red Sox or Yankees for leader of the division. From what I've heard, the original owner wanted to make quick money on sell outs for BoSox and Yanks games, but in return the Rays can't make it to the next level.

Earlier in the thread, I was talking about the economics of baseball and how it'd be impossible to get a "level playing field" economically because baseball is supposed to be an embodiment of capitalism to some politicians. Between that and the anti-trust exemption, baseball is uncompelled to add a salary cap or spending restraint.

The Rays re-aligning out of the Al East, however, is quite possible but would require both a blueprint for a new alignment and the blessings of ownership.

The simplest way to go about things would be to put the Ray sin the (much more competitive) AL Central and switch the Detroit Tigers back to the AL East.

What I would LOVE to see is the Rays move to the NL. I hate AL baseball with the DH and a lack of focus on the cerebral side of the game. Note that would also bring in several of the teams that have trained in the Tampa Bay region in the last 20 years more often (the Cardinals, the Pirates, the Phillies, the Reds).

[HARTride 2012]

A lie of omission? More like just a lie

By HOWARD TROXLER
Published November 27, 2007
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No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

No to the city of St. Petersburg.

No to its government. No to its mayor. No to its deputy mayors and assistant pooh-bahs.

They do not get to run the government like this. They just don't.

For much of 2007, the citizens of St. Petersburg, also known as taxpayers and voters, believed that they were taking part in actual democracy.

They thought they were taking part in a public process to decide the future of the city's waterfront.

They showed up, they signed up to speak, they testified, they pleaded. The city pretended to be listening.

We now know it was a sham. Since March 2007, the city had a signed confidentiality agreement with the Tampa Bay Rays concerning plans to use the waterfront for a 35,000-seat, $450-million baseball stadium.

And all of those voters, and citizens, and taxpayers, who thought they were Making Their Voices Heard and all of that kind of civics-class nonsense were just being suckers.

But they weren't the only suckers. All of us who live in St. Petersburg are suckers as well.

That's why the all-wise City Hall decided it was best to keep this proposal concealed from the city's voters even during the city election.

To which a sane person can only ask, in amazement:

Are you kidding me?

The biggest, most important decision the city will make in a generation, and the city believes it is none of the voters' business even while they are choosing the next City Council?

I want a do-over.

I want a new election. I want the mayor and entire City Council recalled so the voters can have an honest election about the future of the city based on the truth.

Tell me, now, how many other secret deals does Mayor Rick Baker have going? What else don't we know? Can we trust the water department? The parks? The heads of police and fire?

How many other times has the city abused this state law that allows Florida government to cast secrecy over anything labeled "economic development"?

We are not talking merely about a new widget factory coming to St. Petersburg, which is the kind of thing for which this secrecy was intended. (Even that loophole is , if you ask me.)

Neither are we just talking about the need to give the Rays a little elbow room and breathing space before their plans became public.

No. On top of all that, the city actually went through the charade of holding a public process of rewriting its land-use codes, and of pretending to be taking public input.

So why, now, should citizens believe anything that this city government says in a public process?

It will be interesting now to see how much "public input" the city intends to allow as this baseball deal proceeds.

It will be fascinating to see exactly how the sale of the existing Tropicana Field is supposed to produce a pot of gold.

It will be downright transfixing to learn who is supposed to be on the hook for any shortfall.

Oh, and I am even mildly curious as to whether the city really intends to allow an election that gives the voters the last say. The City Charter requires one, but we can see how much "democracy" actually matters in St. Petersburg.

[Last modified November 26, 2007, 23:39:23]

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/11/27/Co...sion_Mor.shtml

[Quegiebo]

This is certainly a distrubing development - one which will likely remain on the affected voters' radar screen for a week or two, at best... unless, of course, King Baker's planning a sex-change or something else as politically important.

[John F]

With St. Pete voter apathy (10 percent of city residents voted in that election), I don't think anyone will care period.

BTW -- the old quesiton about location, location, location is up on www.sticksoffire.com -- where should a Rays stadium be? The proposed waterfront location? Tampa? Between Tampa and St. Pete? The Trop?