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Old December 16th, 2005, 12:33 AM   #41
juanico
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glickel
One thing that needs to be pointed out is that the none of suburban tracks of the RER are new. Before the RER, there was still a massive suburban network in Paris, but they all ended at the six major stations. The genoius of the RER was to put the stations underground and put the trains through the city.

There are still suburban lines that have not been upgrade to RER status. I have family who live in the northeastern suburb of Paris. Until recently, I had to take the metro to Gare de l'est and go above ground to get a train to the 'burbs. Since they built the E line, I have at least one more option. But the RER E uses the same tracks and stations once above ground.

Point of this ranting is that there is more train access to the suburbs that just the RER.
No no sir, all the RATP part of the network (e.g. half of the A line, and half of the B line) was totally new and built between the mid-70's and early 90's.

You are right on the fact that the SNCF part (half of the 2 above mentioned lines, plus C, D, E lines) were created above ancient suburban lines (as you said about the new E line which replaces the old 'Eastern line') and that many suburban lines still link Paris and its suburbs.
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Old December 16th, 2005, 01:40 AM   #42
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Ya, some suburban trains that are not called or "look" RER serve some of the gaps not served by the RER. If I recall correctly, they leave from the St. Lazare and Montparnasse train stations. The ones I recall were very old and ugly and grey...they don't have the red, white and blue of many of the RERs.

I love the look of the new double-decker RERs that have the leaf as part of their logo.

On another note, two trams provide mass transit in some northern and also some southern and eastern suburbs. I've only taken the T2 once, though.
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Old December 16th, 2005, 03:11 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edubejar
Ya, some suburban trains that are not called or "look" RER serve some of the gaps not served by the RER. If I recall correctly, they leave from the St. Lazare and Montparnasse train stations.
Not only Montparnasse and St. Lazare, but all the 6 main railroad stations of Paris. There are still suburban trains living from Gare de l'Est, Gare du Nord, Gare de Lyon and Gare d'Austerlitz. The suburban trains represent 2,000 km of lines in Ile-de-France region. The RER network, which is a different network, consists of 500 km of lines.

Juanico is right in his description of the network. Under the acronym of RER, there is actually two different philosophies of lines.

Lines A and B have been devellopped by the RATP (operating Paris metro), they have been totally thought in the 60's and 70's. On the line B for instance, it's only the Southern section of the line (untill Luxembourg), which is older. The whole Northern part of the line (from Luxembourg to Charles de Gaulle Airport and Mitry-Claye) has been built during the 70's and the 80's.

On the other side, lines C, D and E, develloped by the SNCF (operating suburban trains) are just about old suburban rail lines which have been connected from one another.

The difference between both networks is really massive. Lines A and B work a lot better than lines C, D and E.

[IMG]The ones I recall were very old and ugly and grey...they don't have the red, white and blue of many of the RERs. [/IMG]The red, white and blue trains belong to the RATP (lines A and B). That's why you can't find them on SNCF suburban lines.

However, the double decker trains operating on lines C and D are exactly the same trains are those which were operated on the old suburban tracks which existed before they've been "changed" into RER lines.

[IMG]I love the look of the new double-decker RERs that have the leaf as part of their logo.[/IMG]Those new double-decker RERs you're talking about are operated on lines A and E. They've been elaborated together by the RATP and the SNCF. The name of those cars however is an RATP name, they are called MI 2N (and not Z something like SNCF trains). They are interesting as despite being double-deckers, they have three doors on each cars (instead of only one at each extremity of cars).

However, the MI 2N cars operated on RER A don't have the leaf on them. If that's the case, it's because those trains belong to the RATP. Indeed, that leaf is actually the new symbol of the SNCF network in Ile-de-France (known as "Transilien"). It's an attempt of the SNCF to increase the reputation of its suburban trains in grouping them together with its RER lines. However, the only effect that grouping has had is actually to increase the contrast of quality between the RATP network (which globally works well), and the SNCF network (which is awful and haven't been re-thought since ages).

Quote:
On another note, two trams provide mass transit in some northern and also some southern and eastern suburbs. I've only taken the T2 once, though.
Yeah, the T2 line is actually not really a light rail line as it's operated on heavy rails between La Défense and Issy. That's because the T2 line actually use for the larger part a former rail network. There are projects about extedning the T2 line northbound, using light rail track, which will make of it a real tramway line. Those lines of tramways belong by the way to the RATP.

However, the RATP has proposed another project, which is about creating a new metro circle line, fully underground, in the narrowing suburbs of Paris (having a population density superior of 15,000/km²). That project has not been accepted yet, because the Ile-de-France region found it too expensive. Here is a map of the project :



If it was only about me, I would incorporate the T2 line to make the circle complete. However, we can also think about extending the line in the west using new underground tracks which would be parallel to the actual T2 line. Anyway, no matter what would be decided (or not decided) there is a lot to do !
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Old December 16th, 2005, 04:15 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
Lines A and B have been devellopped by the RATP (operating Paris metro), they have been totally thought in the 60's and 70's. On the line B for instance, it's only the Southern section of the line (untill Luxembourg), which is older. The whole Northern part of the line (from Luxembourg to Charles de Gaulle Airport and Mitry-Claye) has been built during the 70's and the 80's.
... not fully built ("by" the SNCF), partly connected !
Moreover, from Nanterre-Universite to Cergy and Poissy (western part), le line A is operated by the SNCF.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
Quote:
The ones I recall were very old and ugly and grey...they don't have the red, white and blue of many of the RERs.
The red, white and blue trains belong to the RATP (lines A and B). That's why you can't find them on SNCF suburban lines.
?????? What do you say !? Have you ever taken a suburban train ?
The blue/white/red is only the livery "Ile de France" and you can find these kind of colours all over the SNCF suburban lines.

A Z6400 on St Lazare network (this suburban train is not blue/white/red ?) :


2 VB2N, a Z8800 and a Z20500 in Gare de l'Est :


A VB2N on Montparnasse network :



Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
Quote:
I love the look of the new double-decker RERs that have the leaf as part of their logo.
Those new double-decker RERs you're talking about are operated on lines A and E. They've been elaborated together by the RATP and the SNCF. The name of those cars however is an RATP name, they are called MI 2N (and not Z something like SNCF trains). They are interesting as despite being double-deckers, they have three doors on each cars (instead of only one at each extremity of cars).
At the SNCF :
MI2N are called Z22500, the project name was "MI2N Alteo" for the RATP and "MI2N Eole" for the SNCF.
MI79 (RER B) are called Z8100.
MI84 (RER A) are called Z8400.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
However, the MI 2N cars operated on RER A don't have the leaf on them. If that's the case, it's because those trains belong to the RATP. Indeed, that leaf is actually the new symbol of the SNCF network in Ile-de-France (known as "Transilien"). It's an attempt of the SNCF to increase the reputation of its suburban trains in grouping them together with its RER lines. However, the only effect that grouping has had is actually to increase the contrast of quality between the RATP network (which globally works well), and the SNCF network (which is awful and haven't been re-thought since ages).
Are you working for the RATP

This train was delivered in october 2002 and was meant for the RER C :

Last edited by [email protected]; April 10th, 2007 at 12:13 PM.
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Old December 16th, 2005, 11:42 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
... not fully built ("by" the SNCF), partly connected !
Moreover, from Nanterre-Universite to Cergy and Poissy (western part), le line A is operated by the SNCF.
Of course the lines A and B have been later extended to SNCF sections, but it was initially a fully RATP project. In 1977, when the RER has been inaugurated, it was operated strictly by the RATP, and it's been a tremendous success.

In 1979, when the SNCF did its odd job in creating the RER C. The least we can say is that it's been less fervently welcomed.

Quote:
?????? What do you say !? Have you ever taken a suburban train ?
The blue/white/red is only the livery "Ile de France" and you can find these kind of colours all over the SNCF suburban lines.
I believe Edubejar had more in mind the RERs from lines A and B, which are predominantly red and blue :



That's what I call an RER !

Quote:
At the SNCF :
MI2N are called Z22500, the project name was "MI2N Alteo" for the RATP and "MI2N Eole" for the SNCF.
MI79 (RER B) are called Z8100.
MI84 (RER A) are called Z8400.
You've just confessed it by yourself, the project name of the MI2N for the SNCF was the RATP name...

Quote:
Are you working for the RATP
No, I don't work for the RATP. Are you working for the SNCF ?

Anyway, let me tell you that the SNCF does a pathetic job in Ile-de-France. That's not really their fault as the whole structures in Paris are thought as if the city ended at the périphérique. Hence it's natural the network is crap when in a 100% urban environment such as the "Petite Couronne" (departments surrounding the city of Paris), the network is operated as if it was still suburban. However, the SNCF, has never realized there was a problem or if they did have done nothing to solve it. I won't say that it's because of the workers of the SNCF being always on strike as that's also the case on the RATP, but despite this, the RATP network is still a lot more efficient.
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Old April 9th, 2007, 12:00 AM   #46
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Two pictures of my favorite RER trains


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Old April 9th, 2007, 06:02 AM   #47
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Got to love the RER!! I am always in awe when confronted by Paris transit network-not to mention envious. Its amazing how well integrated the RER and Metro systems are, especially considering the density and the lack of space. All I can say is transit at its finest..

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Old April 9th, 2007, 11:07 AM   #48
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Rush hours in the





RER B at Saint Michel Notre Dame


RER B two MI 79


RER C


RER E
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Old April 16th, 2007, 07:16 PM   #49
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The First Years of the Parisien R.E.R. (1967- 1987)

I' m very happy to opening this thread about the first years of the parisien metro regional service named RER (Reseau Express Regional).

In My opinion I Think the RER is the Best Subway Service in the World . Please May SomeOne has some Images about RER with the MS 61 car (whith the first vernissage) during the firsts years ? Thank you just for now !
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Old April 16th, 2007, 08:00 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STEFER View Post
I' m very happy to opening this thread about the first years of the parisien metro regional service named RER (Reseau Express Regional).

In My opinion I Think the RER is the Best Subway Service in the World . Please May SomeOne has some Images about RER with the MS 61 car (whith the first vernissage) during the firsts years ? Thank you just for now !
RER is not a "Subway Service" only a small percentage of its routes (Anyone know the actial %) run in tunnels under the center of Paris. Most its routes were the commuter railways which had served Paris since the 1840's.
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Old April 16th, 2007, 09:37 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STEFER View Post
I' m very happy to opening this thread about the first years of the parisien metro regional service named RER (Reseau Express Regional).
You're welcome. Usually though, after this 'I'm very happy to open...'-sentence, we get somewhat of a detailed story - in this case about the aforementioned first twenty years of RER service.
That's what I thought to find here when I opened this thread - a bit disappointed that it isn't there...
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Old April 16th, 2007, 10:29 PM   #52
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I think the RER is an excellent model public transport should follow. Subways should be restricted to city centres and RER for suburban traffic.

Shame there wasn't more in this opening thread. RER really is something for Parisians to boast about.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 04:09 PM   #53
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1837 opened the Lazare - LePecq in August and extended to St Germain-en-Laye in 1847
~ opened Le Gare de Saint Lazare in 1843
~ electrified on third rail for ‘rames’ standard in 1927
~ reconstruction and electrification @ 25kVac began in the late 1960’s
1840 opened the Austerlitz -Juvisy line and Compagnie Paris-Orleans extended services for 50 years
~ electification began with the extention to Quai d’Orsay in 1900
~ electrification by thrid rail spread until 1921
~ Compagnie Paris-Orleans converted thrid rail to 1500Vdc
~ a low-level station at Austerlitz with dive-unders was built in 1969 as precursor to RER-C
1846 Compagnie de Sceaux opened the Ligne de Sceaux from Denfert - Bourg-le-Reine and Sceaux
~ extended the Ligne de Sceaux to St Remy-les-Chevreuse in 1867
~ electrified on third rail for ‘rames’ standard in 1937
1949 Chemin de Fer de l’Etat opened the line form Paris - Melun on August 12
~ electrified @ 1500Vdc in 1950
~ suburban service diverted to Gare de Lyon low-level station in 1980
1954 Pont Cardinet <> Porte d’Auteuil line opened on May 2
- a branch across the Seine towards Invalides was added in 1900’s
- electrified with 3rd rail in January 1925 but never converted to 25kVac creating an isolated shuttle
1859 Compagnie du Nord opened the main line to Creil, Amiens, Lille and Brussels
~ electrified @ 25kVac in 1958
~ Orry-La-Ville service diverted to Nord low-level station in 1982
1859 Compagnie de l’Est opened the Bastille - La Varenne line
~ extended the Bastille line to Boissy Saint Leger in 874
1878 Invalides station opened on an extention of the Petit Ceinure to serve the exposition
~ electrified on third rail for ‘rames’ standard in 1901 from Invalides to Versaile Rive Gauche
~ reconstruction and electrification @ 1500Vdc was completed May 27 1979
1969 closed the Bastile station in december when the Boissy Saint Leger line was diverted to Nation
~ reconstruction and electrification @ 1500Vdc began in 1960
~ became a branch of RER-A in 1977
1972 opened the 1st RER line (A) from Auber to St Germain-en-Laye in October
1977 connected the RER-A from Auber to Gare de Lyon, Nation & Noisey-le-Grand in December
~ central section was seriously strained with too much trafic in 1970’s & 1980’s
1977 opened the RER-B line extending the Ligne de Sceaux to Chalet-les-Halles
~ Orly-Rail, Austerlitz - Pont de Rungis and busses ot airport, launched May 28, 1972
1979 opened the RER-C line connecting the Austerlitz suburban lines along the Seine to Versailles
~ require a 841m connection from Quai d’Orsay to Invalides
1980 extended the RER-C from Viroflay to St Quentin-en-Yvelines in June
1980 extended the RER-A from Noisey-le-Grand to Torcy in December
1981 extended the RER-B line from Chalet-les-Halles to Gare du Nord
1983 extended the RER-B line from Gare du Nord to CDG Roissey
~ service from Gare du Nord began in 1976
1983 opened the RER-B branch from Aulnay-Sous-Bois to Mitry-Mory
1988 connected the RER-A branch from Nanterre Universite to Poissy and Cergy-le-Haut in July
~ service from St. Lazar on these lines 1979
1988 opened the RER-C VMI branch to Argenteuil and Montigny-Beauchamp in September
~ crosses the Seine on the 1900’s PC railway bridge, closed 1937 and rebuilt
- Porte d’Auteuil line closed in January 1985 for inclusion in RER-C
1988 finally opened the Saint Michel station connecting RER-B & RER-C in September
1995 opened the RER-D line connecting the PLM suburban lines to Gare de Nord & St Denis/Orry-la-Ville
~ Orry-la-Ville services extended to Chatelet in 1987
1992 extended the RER-A from Torcy to MLV Chessy
1993? opened the Orlyval automatic metro from Athony station on RER-B
1994 extended the RER-B line from CDG Roissey to CDG TGV station
1999 opened the RER-E in the EOLE tunnel, Haussmann <>Chelles-Gourney/Villiers-sur Marne
1999 SNCF has branded it’s Isle de France suburban and regional activities as Transilien SNCF
2000 extended the RER-C from Montigny-Beauchamp to Pontoise
~ including a new 6-track bridge at Pontoise
2004? re-opened the Grand Ceinture, St Germain<>Noisy-le-Roi connecting to the St Nom-la-Berteche line
- freight services are opposed by affluent areas
201?? extended the RER-E in a tunnel from Haussman to Pont Cardinet on to St. Nom-le-Bretchere
~ Pont Cardinet is 2km NE.of St. Lazare
2008 extended the RER-E, Villiers-sur Marne <> Tournan @ Gretz-Armianvilliers
2011 renovated RER-B to CdeG and created traffic separation for airport trains to increase reliability
2012? inaugurated “CDG-express” using the RER-B fast lines and a new line parallel to LGV jonction
~ using the space at Gare-de l’Est vacated by the suburban trains now using RER-E
- replaces the original plan on a dedicated line from Noisy-le-Sec <> Roissy-CDG IAP
~ in a tunnel, Noisy-le-Sec <> Aulnay-sous-Bois, two new tracks parallel to RER-B
~ use a new track beside the LGV-jonction to a shuttle terminal at Roissy-CDG TGV station
- the 1st French railway to be tendered as a Build, Operate and Maintain private operation in 2006
2016? re-opened the Grand Ceinture, Sartrouville < Epinay> Noisy-le-Sec for tangential services
~ lay two new tracks beside the Grande Ceinture freight ring line over the 28 km
~ public consultation in 2007 with DPU expected in 2008
- opened Epinay-sur-Seine <>Le Bourget by 2014
202?? re-opened and electrified the western Grand Ceinture, Acheres <> Versailles
- for Pontoise <> Melun tangential services via Versaille, Massy, Evry & Corbeil-Essones

I hope this is helpfull.
Dates with question marks are only approximate!
I would welcome more detailed information and correction of my mistakes.

Much of this information was gleaned from an story in Todays Railway augmented by notes which I have been keeping for many years.

Last edited by Trainman Dave; April 17th, 2007 at 04:17 PM.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 06:26 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
201?? extended the RER-E in a tunnel from Haussman to Pont Cardinet on to St. Nom-le-Bretchere
~ Pont Cardinet is 2km NE.of St. Lazare
.
That's wrong

The RER E will be extended at la Defense by a tunnel with a stop at Porte Maillot.
It will never serve the station Pont Cardinet.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
1988 Opened the RER-C VMI branch to Argenteuil and Montigny-Beauchamp in September.
2006 The branch from Ermont to Argenteuil is separated from the RER C and integrated into the new suburban line Saint Lazare - Argenteuil - Ermont-Eaubonne
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Old April 17th, 2007, 06:55 PM   #55
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After the extention at La Defense, the will take the Sncf branchs of the .
will become a RATP line only

2007


In 202?
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Old April 17th, 2007, 07:27 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minato ku View Post
That's wrong

The RER E will be extended at la Defense by a tunnel with a stop at Porte Maillot.
It will never serve the station Pont Cardinet.

2006 The branch from Ermont to Argenteuil is separated from the RER C and integrated into the new suburban line Saint Lazare - Argenteuil - Ermont-Eaubonne
Thank you for the corrections
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Old April 17th, 2007, 07:58 PM   #57
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Z 23 1937 Sceau line (This ligne became in 1977 ) refurbished version Retired in the 80's



MS 61 1967 second vernissage (I didn't found picture with the first)


MS 61 refurbished 2005



MI 79 1980 (The first trains are under in refurbished)


MI 84 1984
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Old April 18th, 2007, 01:57 AM   #58
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and in the same breath you will call trains in american subways and light rail ugly, thats a bit hyprotritcal (i never did well in spelling).

although i do have to say its one of the best systems ever
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Old April 18th, 2007, 02:48 PM   #59
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Thanks minato for that beautiful pics
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Old April 20th, 2007, 04:45 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minato ku View Post
That's wrong

The RER E will be extended at la Defense by a tunnel with a stop at Porte Maillot.
It will never serve the station Pont Cardinet.

After the extention at La Defense, the will take the Sncf branchs of the .
will become a RATP line only
You are wrong !!!

This extension is only a project supported by the "EPAD" ("promoter" of La Defense district)...

The RER E should go in Versailles-RD, St Nom la Bretèche and Mantes la Jolie via La Défense (that's new since 11/2006)...

What it is written in the SDRIF (http://www.sdrif.com/IMG/pdf/SDRIF_Web-2.pdf)
Quote:
...Le deuxième concerne le RER E, avec d'une part la création d'un débouché à l'ouest, dans l'objectif d'augmenter ses capacités, d'améliorer la desserte du Nord-Ouest parisien, de La Défense et de la Seine Aval jusqu'au Mantois, et de dégager des capacités pour la desserte de Cergy-Pontoise, et d'autre part son prolongement jusqu à Meaux...

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