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Old March 3rd, 2010, 10:38 PM   #461
LtBk
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Despite Germany being "inefficient", you guys have mass transit systems that many in the US can only dream off.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 12:22 AM   #462
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Despite Germany being "inefficient", you guys have mass transit systems that many in the US can only dream off.
It's because States are made for cars... and ppl in us cities are just prisoners of their cars... maybe u can live without a car in NY, San Francisco or... exactly that's pretty much it
In Europe car is freedom, but public transportation isnt that bad, so u can live using buses and trains, in States car is a need, cos its hard to develope an efficient public transportation for cities that are so large... where there is nothing but houses mileswide...
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Old March 4th, 2010, 12:29 AM   #463
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The scandal about the subway construction site in Cologne also includes faked documents so that nobody can immediately recognise that something is going wrong there.
Cologne is the "Naples of Germany" when it comes to corruption cases.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 04:38 AM   #464
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I was excepting cities like Dresden to be more corrupt. Why is Koln more corrupt?
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Old March 4th, 2010, 05:13 AM   #465
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To be honest, it is just my perception. There is a phenomenom called "Kölscher Klüngel", which comes from Cologne. Basically it is kind of helping out friends and they help you out in return. But it can mutate to corruption and bribery.

Anyway, this thread is about Berlin's subway.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 06:39 AM   #466
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So u assume they come from abroad?
LOL, not assume. I used the word "or" in that sentence.

–conjunction
1.
(used to connect words, phrases, or clauses representing alternatives)

This suggests it could be locals or foreigners. If foreigners, they have the opportunity to return to their home countries to avoid prosecution.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 06:44 AM   #467
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Despite Germany being "inefficient", you guys have mass transit systems that many in the US can only dream off.
Well, these are quite typical in European countries, not just Germany. It has a lot to do with the density of our cities which makes public transport more viable. Germany does pretty good overall in Europe as well. One thing we are lucky here is that few cities destroyed their tram networks.

It does seem though that a large number of cities built their metro networks after WWII and in particular during the 1980's. I have often wondered what was so special in the 1980's that either the governments had so much money or construction was so much cheaper. That said, they are quite bland and functional in comparison to the new u-bahn stations being built today.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 06:48 AM   #468
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As you know, the US has cities that are urban as those in Europe like Chicago and Philly, yet they have crappy mass transit compared to those to Europe, and it gets much worse once you reach the suburbs.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 04:01 PM   #469
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http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/17115...formation.html
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Old March 4th, 2010, 05:13 PM   #470
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Europe never experienced the same degree of suburbanization, inner-city divestment, and highway obsession post-WWII as did the U.S., or the corresponding indifference or hostility to transit. I could be wrong, but as I understand, even dense New York City (the queen of heavy rail metro) had no subway construction post-1950 until the Second Avenue Subway project started just a few years ago.

In the U.S., auto and bus companies also persuaded most mid-to-large American cities to remove their trolley (tram) tracks, exceptions being Philadelphia, Boston, Pittsburgh, and San Francisco (though often with reduced networks). Germany never did this, they retained their old tram networks and often these became the basis of Stadtbahn (pre-metro), or feeder lines for full Metro systems (like those in München). Because the old population centers maintained their density, vitality, and tax base, it would have been far easier to build the type of systems they have (that, and Germans don't have a fanatical hyper-individualist, anti-public works, anti-transit streak that many Americans do).

France dismantled most of its cities tram networks as well; most of those you see today are de novo systems as least as far as trackage, some follow the old tram routes.

As Justme pointed out, the German stations are often bland or functional, especially the Stadtbahn-type systems common in the Rhein-Ruhr area, but most American mid-sized cities would kill to have systems like these. It's a shame that Germany seems to be losing its edge on being able to build out these systems as needed they way they once did.

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As you know, the US has cities that are urban as those in Europe like Chicago and Philly, yet they have crappy mass transit compared to those to Europe, and it gets much worse once you reach the suburbs.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 07:04 PM   #471
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He is talking about stations build in the 80's.
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Old March 5th, 2010, 11:33 AM   #472
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Year, newer stations in Germany are much more attractive in design than the ones built in the 1980's. Many of the new ones are simply fantastic.
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Old March 8th, 2010, 07:29 AM   #473
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Such a pity this line is so slow to construct for a couple of reasons. One, I guess this means that for the next 7 years at least, Berlin's proud and beautiful boulevard, Unter den Linden will be a construction site and second, it is plain embarrassing for Germany.

How these politicians could accept the U55 as a viable construction is beyond belief. And as the federal capital, and Germany's face to the world, the national government should step in and help fund this to get it finished quicker.

Yes, pumping even more money into that hellhole of Berlin.

They get more than enough support from western Germany already. If they can't use it effieciently then its their problem.

And to be honest, if Berlin can't afford new subway lines then they shouldn't built them. Its not like these lines are essential for the economy. Its pure Luxus to have such lines. And Berlin is far from experiencing a traffic collapse. That city was once built for 5 million people and now it has around 3.6 million.

And talking about efficiency. Pumping tax money from west Germany into Berlin is probably the most inefficent way to allocate resources in this country. Seing this I really wish that reunification never happened and the capital stayed in beautiful Bonn.

And you wonder why there was so much construction back in the 1980s? West Germany could use its hard earned money to construct its own infrastructure and not waste it in ex commie Germany.
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Last edited by goschio; March 8th, 2010 at 07:45 AM.
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Old March 8th, 2010, 07:52 AM   #474
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This has nothing to do with the East/West divide and pumping up the East. This is Berlin, our national capital. Our face to the world. It doesn't matter if the capital is in the East, the West, North or South, it should be properlly funded as capital cities around the world usually are.

And Berlin is hardly a hellhold, it is one of the great cities of the world. Though, I do respect your opinion if you don't personally like it.

Just because the city used to have a higher population, doesn't mean the transport infrastructure today is good enough. Times change as do travelling needs, and much has changed in transport since the divide of the city in the cold war, the destruction of most of it's tramways and other rail infrastructure.

Besides, the capital city in your country was almost exclusively built from federal funds. Berlin at least is a real city, organically grown rather than planned.
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Old March 8th, 2010, 07:58 AM   #475
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^
Don't mind helping them out, but pumping eve more money into it, as you suggested, is the wrong way IMO. They get more than enough already and if they can't use it properly then its their problem.

And Berlin the face to the world?

Other cities such as Munich, Hamburg or even Rhein-Ruhr are just as important. Berlin might see lots of budget tourists but busines travelers will be found in other cities. Why paying luxury subways in Berlin while western German central stations are crumbling. Look at Munich central station. Its a disaster. Same poor conditions all over Rhein Ruhr. Infrastructure investments should somewhat reflect the economic capabilitis of a region.
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And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
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Old March 8th, 2010, 08:05 AM   #476
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^
Don't mind helping them out, but pumping eve more money into it, as you suggested, is the wrong way IMO. They get more than enough already and if they can't use it properly then its their problem.

And Berlin the face to the world?

Other cities such as Munich, Hamburg or even Rhein-Ruhr are just as important. Berlin might see lots of budget tourists but busines travelers will be found in other cities. Why paying luxury subways in Berlin if western German central stations are crumbling. Look at Munich central station. Its a disaster. Same poor conditions all over Rhein Ruhr.
Well, Berlin is the face of Germany. The Rhein Ruhr is not really known outside of the Germanic World (as the Rhein Ruhr, those some may have heard of Düsseldorf & Cologne). Munich and Hamburg are quite known, but Berlin is still by a long shot the most famous city in Germany.

It is the face of the country. Just like Sydney is the face of Australia. Melbourne is not that far off in importance and population, but ask anyone outside of Australia to name one city and most would say Sydney.

Why pay for the subway? Because it needs the money. By the way, I believe Munich station will be rennovated soon by DB
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Old March 8th, 2010, 10:10 AM   #477
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^
Look at Munich central station. Its a disaster. Same poor conditions all over Rhein Ruhr. Infrastructure investments should somewhat reflect the economic capabilitis of a region.
This isn't true. The most important station in Ruhr -Dortmund- is under construction. And Essen was refurbished last year.
Beside this, the smaller Gelsenkirchen station is in a perfect condition since the world cup 2006 !
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Old March 8th, 2010, 11:49 AM   #478
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This isn't true. The most important station in Ruhr -Dortmund- is under construction. And Essen was refurbished last year.
Beside this, the smaller Gelsenkirchen station is in a perfect condition since the world cup 2006 !
Are you seriously suggesting that Dortument central station renovation is a success? It is the cheapest way possible to keep that station functioning. Same in Essen. Nothing special at all.

These are not provincial towns somewhere in the middle of nowhere. This is the economical heartland of Germany.
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Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

Matthew 7:25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Last edited by goschio; March 8th, 2010 at 11:59 AM.
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Old March 8th, 2010, 01:51 PM   #479
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Are you seriously suggesting that Dortument central station renovation is a success? It is the cheapest way possible to keep that station functioning. Same in Essen. Nothing special at all.

These are not provincial towns somewhere in the middle of nowhere. This is the economical heartland of Germany.
The current renovations in Dortmund are the first step. Next ones will follow soon, Essen is fresh & clean now, we don't need cathedrals as a stations here in Ruhr!
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Old March 8th, 2010, 03:34 PM   #480
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This isn't true. The most important station in Ruhr -Dortmund- is under construction.
well, they did some renovations in the main hall and on the front. Meanwhile the passenger access tunnels still look ugly as hell and still no elevators to the platforms. And this in one of the busiest train stations in germany.
The promised next step in renovations won't happen before 2013/14, finished in 2017.
But as it seems that the RRX is more or less dead, I won't believe too much that it actually is going to happen.

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This is Berlin, our national capital. Our face to the world
What's the point in showing the world a pretty face if the rest of the country has to suffer from it?
And in contrast to many other regions Berlin has a good public transport system. And has seen lots of investment in the recent past. (Hbf, Südkreuz, now Ostkreuz ...).
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